Preamble

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

London County Council (Money) Bill,

Read the Third time, and passed.

Ayr Burgh (Electricity) Bill [Lords],

To be read a Second time To-morrow.

Chester Gas Bill [Lords],

Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation Bill [Lords],

Torquay Corporation (Electricity) Bill [Lords],

Read a Second time, and committed.

Railways (West Scottish Group) Bill (by Order),

Order for Second Reading read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.

Oral Answers to Questions — ENEMY ACTION (CLAIMS).

Sir J. BUTCHER: 2.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. F. M. Richardson, ex-chief officer of ss. "Diomed," who on 21st August, 1915, received terrible injuries from shell-fire from a German submarine, which sank that vessel, and who was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his courageous devotion to duty and his efforts to save his ship; whether he is aware that owing to these injuries Mr. F. M. Richardson is now totally incapacitated from following his employment, and would, but for his disablement, be now on turn for command at a salary of £1,000 a year; whether the pension of £290 a year awarded to Mr. Richardson under the war-risks scheme has recently been reduced to £192 10s., on the alleged ground that his earning capacity is not
totally destroyed; and whether in view of all the circumstances, the Board will restore to him his full disablement allowance?

Dr. M'DONALD: 41.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that Engineer Thomas Edward Lunt, of the ss. "Sagamore," which was torpedoed on 3rd March, 1917, off the Irish coast, was exposed for 10 days and 11 nights, in consequence of which both feet had to be amputated; that Mr. Lunt was awarded a pension of £250; that this is now reduced to £139, although Mr. Lunt has a wife and five children under 14 years of age; and will he inquire if the original award can be restored, as Mr. Lunt is permanently incapacitated from following his profession?

The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Baldwin): In view of the circumstances of these cases, I have given instructions that both officers shall be reexamined by medical boards.

Oral Answers to Questions — BRITISH DYESTUFFS CORPORATION.

Major BARNES: 3.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether one or more of the principal technical experts in the service of the British Dyestuffs Corporation have resigned their position; and whether, in view of the quarrels and disputes with the staff and the directors, he will consider the advisability of an independent inquiry by a Select Committee of this House into the circumstances of this corporation?

Mr. BALDWIN: There have been certain changes in the technical staff of the British Dyestuffs Corporation at various times owing to a variety of causes; but as regards the remainder of the question I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Stafford on the 29th May.

Major BARNES: Does that mean that the Government are satisfied with the position of this company now?

Mr. BALDWIN: It is a large industrial company in which the Government have a subordinate interest. In my opinion, political investigations into the affairs of commercial companies do not make for commercial success.

Major MACKENZIE WOOD: In view of the large interest that the public has in this concern, cannot the right hon. Gentleman say what is the reason for so many directors resigning in recent months?

Mr. BALDWIN: The annual meeting of the company will be held in a few days, when a statement will undoubtedly be made by the chairman to the body of shareholders.

Mr. KILEY: Have the Government come to no decision as to the use of the proxies on their behalf by their nominees on the Board?

Mr. BALDWIN: I do not follow what the hon. Member means.

Mr. KILEY: Proxies have been sent out on behalf of the Board asking the shareholders to support them against the proposal for an investigation of the company. What action do the Government intend to take, and what instructions are to be given to their nominees for dealing with the matter?

Mr. BALDWIN: I require notice of that question.

Major BARNES: 6.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if the Government director on the board of the British Dyestuffs Corporation has received any instructions as to the principles that must govern any arrangement made between that corporation and the dyemakers in Germany; and, if so, what instructions have been given?

Mr. BALDWIN: As I have already informed the House, the conversations which have taken place between the interests mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member have so far been only of a preliminary and non-committal character. Consequently, it has not been thought necessary to give any instructions to the Government directors of the British Dyestuffs Corporation, especially as they are fully acquainted with the general policy of the Government in respect to this particular industry.

Major M. WOOD: 9.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Committee appointed by him under Clause 2 (6) of the Dyestuffs (Import Regulation) Act, 1920, for the purpose of advising him with respect to the efficient and econo-
mical development of the dye-making industry, has yet tendered to him any advice; if so, on what occasions the advice was given and what was its nature; and, if not, whether it is in consequence of the failure of the Committee to give such advice that the British Dyestuffs Corporation has sought the assistance and advice of the German dye-makers?

Mr. BALDWIN: The Committee has made representations to me in respect of the supply of benzol for the dye-making industry and the maintenance and development of research therein. But it has been chiefly engaged on important. work in connection with the co-ordination of manufacture, with a view to preventing unnecessary duplication of effort. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative, though I do not accept the hon. and gallant Member's statement as a correct description of the action of the British Dyestuffs Corporation.

Major WOOD: Will not this Committee make a report? Is it not intended that it shall make at least an annual report to the Board of Trade as to what it is doing?

Mr. BALDWIN: It is constantly in close touch with the Board of Trade. We know quite well what it is doing.

Major WOOD: Will there not be a report by this Committee to Parliament?

Mr. BALDWIN: I am not quite sure what their statutory position is, but I will look into the point.

Colonel PENRY WILLIAMS: If an agreement be arrived at, will it be laid before this House before it is ratified?

Mr. BALDWIN: I should like notice of that question. Certainly I have no objection to communicating the terms, but I doubt whether the assent of the House will be necessary for ratification.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: 15.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what fees or salaries are drawn by the directors who represent the Government on the board of directors of the British Dyestuffs Corporation; and whether, in view of the friction existing on the board, what action, if any, does he intend to take to effect a change in its personnel?

Mr. BALDWIN: The two Government directors of the British Dyestuffs Corpora-
tion receive the remuneration of ordinary directors, namely, £750 per annum. As regards the second part of the question, the desirability at any time of changes in the personnel of the directorate is a matter for the whole body of shareholders in the Corporation in which His Majesty's Government have not a controlling interest.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Does not His Majesty's Government have some voice by virtue of holding these shares, and is it not time that the Government used that voice to try to bring about some order in the company?

Mr. BALDWIN: Yes, I am responsible, of course, for keeping in touch with what is going on, and if I were seriously dissatisfied with any action that was being taken it would be my business to communicate with the Government directly. The Government holding in the company is about one-fifth of the total shares.

Dr. MURRAY: Would that not be political interference?

Mr. BALDWIN: No; I do not think so.

Mr. WATERSON: Does the figure of £750 include expenses or not? Is it £750, plus expenses?

Mr. BALDWIN: I must have notice of that question.

Mr. KILEY: Are you satisfied with the work of the board?

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: 16.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that on two occasions Mr. Vernon Clay has resigned positions he has occupied in connection with the British Dyestuffs Corporation; if so, whether he can say what were the reasons given for his action by Mr. Clay; and why these resignations have not been accepted?

Mr. BALDWIN: I understand that the gentleman named has resigned from one post held by him in the British Dyestuffs Corporation, but I am not aware of any second resignation. As regards the remainder of the question, I do not think it would be proper for me to anticipate the statement which will be made by the chairman at the approaching general meeting of the corporation.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the Government satisfied with the present state of affairs on the board of this company?

Mr. BALDWIN: I think the House is aware—at least those who have any knowledge of the subject are aware—of the great difficulties facing those who are endeavouring to establish the dye industry in this country. I believe the board, as at present constituted, is making the most strenuous endeavours to effect that desirable consummation and, I believe, in time, they will be successful.

Mr. HOGGE: 19.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the statements made by him and on his behalf as to the satisfactory progress and results achieved by the British Dyestuffs Corporation, he will state what is the object of the negotiations between the Corporation and the dye makers in Germany as to arrangements regarding the production and price of dyes?

Mr. BALDWIN: I do not think it advisable to make at the present time any statement such as the hon. Member desires. I may remark, however, that I am not aware of any statements made by me or on my behalf to the effect that the dye-making industry in this country has achieved all its objects, and though in all circumstances the progress which has been made is most encouraging, anything which will help to expedite that progress is, of course, very desirable.

Major WOOD: Does the Government approve of the negotiations which are going on between the British Dyestuffs Corporation and the German dye makers?

Mr. BALDWIN: I always approve of negotiations. Whether I approve of the result or not, is another matter.

Colonel P. WILLIAMS: Is it a fact that the French Government have made arrangements with the German dyestuffs makers, and, if so, can the right hon. Gentleman give us a copy of that agreement?

Mr. BALDWIN: I will consider that.

Oral Answers to Questions — S.S. "EGYPT" (INQUIRY).

Captain Viscount CURZON: 4.
asked the President of the Board of Trade
when and where the inquiry into the circumstances attending the loss of the Peninsular and Oriental liner s. s. "Egypt" will be held; and who will conduct the inquiry?

Mr. BALDWIN: The formal investigation into the loss of the "Egypt" will be held in London, and the date will be announced as soon as possible. The inquiry will be conducted by a special Wreck Commissioner appointed for the purpose.

Viscount CURZON: Is it the intention to set up this inquiry very soon? A very long period has passed already since the disaster took place.

Mr. BALDWIN: I am sure that if my hon. and gallant Friend realised the amount of preliminary work to be done before investigation takes place, he would not call it a long time. No time has been lost.

Oral Answers to Questions — SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES ACT.

PART II ORDERS.

Major BARNES: 5.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will give the list of articles that have been removed from the schedule prepared by the Board of Trade under Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act by reason of the decision of a referee appointed under the Act; and what articles are the subject of orders made under Part II of the same Act?

Mr. BALDWIN: The items removed by direction of the Referee from the lists issued by the Board of Trade under Section I (5) of the Safeguarding of Industries Act are camphor, synthetic; citric acid, cream of tartar, R. lactose, santonine, and tartaric acid. A small number of other items have been deleted, and in certain other cases the standard of the dutiable grade has been raised, in accord with what the Board understood to be the general views of the Referee. I am causing a list of these amendments to be sent to the hon. and gallant Member, but I may observe that in respect of certain of the deletions the action of the Board has been challenged by persons intertested. No Order has yet been made under Part II of the Act.

Mr. HOGGE: 7.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the rise in wages in Germany during the last few months and if he will take this into consideration when considering the making of Orders under Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, since experience shows that wages figures embodied by complainants in their applications become quite out of date and misleading by the time the complaints are dealt with by Committees of Inquiry?

Major BARNES: 8.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that his Statistical Department has prepared a schedule for guidance in connection with the present glass bottles inquiry which shows that the recent disparity between the internal and external value of the mark is rapidly disappearing; whether his attention has been called to the figures given in the "Labour Gazette" for May, 1922, indicating a rise in the cost of living in Germany from 863 per cent. over pre-War in July last to 3,075 per cent. in April of this year; and whether he will take these facts into account before making any Order under Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, especially in regard to goods reported on by Committees which completed their inquiries before these changes had developed and before the figures above referred to were available?

Mr. BALDWIN: My attention has been called to the movements in wages and cost of living in Germany to which reference is made. I must point out, however, that such changes constitute only one of the factors of the problem, and that the sterling value of the mark has depreciated while increases in wages, reckoned in marks, have been in progress. The applicability of the conclusions of the Committees of Inquiry to present circumstances must be determined in the light of available. information regarding changes in all the important factors, and I can assure the hon. Members that very careful attention is given to these matters.

Mr. G. TERRELL: 17.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can now state the policy of the Government in regard to bringing into operation Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act in connection with the fabric glove and other industries which the Board of Trade
Committees have recommended should receive the protection of the Act; and whether he will now circulate for the information of Members copies of the Reports of such Committees?

Mr. BALDWIN: As regards the first part of this question, there are similar questions on the Paper addressed to the Prime Minister, and perhaps my hon. Friend will await the answer to his question at the same time. As regards the second part of the question, the Reports of the Committees will be published in the course of a few days.

Major M. WOOD: Will the evidence also be published?

Mr. BALDWIN: I must draw the line at expense somewhere.

Mr. ASQUITH: 30.
asked the Prime Minister whether he can state the decisions arrived at by the Government with regard to the recommendations of the Committees set up under Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act?

Sir DONALD MACLEAN: 29.
asked the Prime Minister whether he can now state the decision of the Government with regard to the recommendation of the Committees set up under Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act?

Mr. HOGGE: 31.
asked the Prime Minister what decisions the Cabinet have come to with regard to the recommendations made to them by the Committees set up under Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN (Leader of the House): I ought to say, before answering these questions, that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister habitually answers questions on Monday. He is, however, prevented from being here to-day because he is entertaining the Prime Minister of France.

Mr. HOGGE: He was here on Thursday.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister then desired the presence of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade when he answered the question. The Prime Minister asked me to say he would gladly answer the question on Thursday next, if my right hon. Friend the Member for
Paisley (Mr. Asquith) would prefer to postpone it until then. I am prepared, however, to give him the answer at once.

Mr. ASQUITH: I think we should have it now.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It is the intention of the Government to lay before the House at a very early date, for approval in accordance with the provisions of Section 2 (4) of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, an Order under Part II of the Act in respect of certain classes of goods as to which Committees have reported that the conditions laid down in the Act are fulfilled.

Mr. ASQUITH: How soon will the House have an opportunity of discussing this matter?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think an occasion must be found before a month elapses. I am ready to find an opportunity as early as possible, but I am in some difficulty about it.

Mr. ASQUITH: I suppose the Order will be laid as soon as possible?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade hopes the Order will be laid tomorrow.

Mr. G. TERRELL: Will the Order cover all cases in which the Committee has reported in favour of the Act being applied?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir.

Mr. HOGGE: Can the right hon. Gentleman not say what are the articles? This has been postponed for a week.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think the hon. Gentleman had better see the Order when it is presented.

Mr. MOSLEY: Can the right hon. Gentleman state whether the alleged division in the Cabinet is correctly described in Ministerial Papers, and whether that information is supplied—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]

Dr. MURRAY: How many of the full-blooded Free Traders of the Government have resigned as a result?

DUTIABLE ARTICLES LIST.

Mr. T. THOMSON: 11.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether,
in view of the confusion prevailing at the different ports as to what goods are now covered by the Safeguarding of Industries Act, he will revise the list published by him in September last, seeing that many commodities which are not specified in that list have now been held to be taxable, whilst a number which were in the list have been held by the referee to be improperly placed therein?

Mr. BALDWIN: I am not aware of any serious confusion of the kind suggested by the hon. Member, but if he will furnish me with specific instances, I shall be glad to consider them in consultation with the Commissioners of Customs.

Mr. THOMSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that traders as a whole are in a complete state of confusion as to what they may or may not do under this Act?

Mr. BALDWIN: No, I am not.

Mr. KILEY: Is the right hon. Gentleman not, aware that there are several thousands of articles on which duties are levied which are not in the list?

Mr. BALDWIN: I have asked my hon. Friend to give me specific details.

ALUMINIUM AND ENAMELLED WARE.

Mr. T. THOMSON: 12.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that, since the Safeguarding of Industries Act Committee held its public inquiry regarding imported aluminium and enamelled hollow-ware, market conditions have so far changed that the British articles are on the average cheaper than the German and are commanding a much readier sale and whether he will make a special endeavour to obtain up-to-date information on this point before deciding what action he will take on the Report presented to him by the Committee in question?

Mr. BALDWIN: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. If, however, the hon. Member can furnish me with any specific information of the kind indicated I shall be prepared to consider it, but I may point out that in respect of both classes of commodities
the registered imports for the month of April were in excess of the monthly average for the first quarter of this year.

GLASS BOTTLES AND CONTAINERS.

Mr. C. WHITE: 13.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will state the reasons justifying the appointment of a Committee to consider the imposing of a duty, under the Safeguarding of Industries Act, on glass bottles and containers of 5 inches internal diameter and not on those of 5½ inches, seeing that substantial quantities of bottles of 5½ inches diameter are imported, whereas of those of 5 inches diameter the imports are limited, and that this distinction will operate as an invitation to trades to import the smaller bottles filled?

Mr. BALDWIN: The terms of reference to the Committee refer generally to glass bottles, but the applicants have themselves limited their complaint in the manner indicated in the question. In regard to the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on the 29th May to the hon. and gallant Members for the Isle of Ely and for Leith.

BINOCULARS. OPERA GLASSES, AND LEATHER GOODS.

Mr. KILEY: 14.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the statement of a firm in the City of London that the export department of their business in cheap grades of French binoculars and opera glasses had been seriously interfered with owing to the imposition of a duty of 33⅓ per cent., and that their business had decreased during the early months of this year against the same period of 1921 by 60 per cent. to 70 per cent.; whether he is aware of the statement of a fancy leather and bag manufacturer in London that his trade with Canada and the United States in bags containing low-priced ladies' opera glasses had also been seriously interfered with owing to the payment of this duty, and that the procedure for obtaining drawback is unworkable and whether he is prepared to take any action to ensure such businesses being continued until similar competitive goods are manufactured in Great Britain?

Mr. BALDWIN: I am not satisfied that the decline in the particular business mentioned in the first part of the question can he ascribed to any appreciable extent to the cause suggested. My attention has been called to the complaint mentioned in the second part of the question, and I am in communication with the Commissioners of Customs with a view to ascertaining to what extent it is warranted. In the meantime, the last part of the question does not arise.

Mr. KILEY: Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is making inquiries into this subject and into the allegations in the question?

Mr. BALDWIN: That is so.

REPAYMENT OF DUTIES.

Mr. FOOT: 20.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that importers who have paid duties on commodities afterwards removed from the list of articles dutiable under Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act have been refused repayment of the duties direct, but can obtain a refund of the duties as duties paid on re-exports if they ship the articles to, say, Rotterdam and back; and whether, in these circumstances, he will obtain powers, if necessary, to repay such duties at once without compellling traders to incur the unnecessary expense above referred to?

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Baird, for Mr. Hilton Young): The facts are substantially as stated in the question, except that drawback is only payable if the goods exported have not been used in this country. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has several times stated, he is not prepared to promote legislation to authorise repayment of the duty paid on goods afterwards removed from the list.

PICTURE MOULDINGS.

Mr. GALBRAITH: 21.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received an application to impose a duty on imported picture mouldings; and, if so, in view of the uncertainty that exists in the picture and photograph frame trade, will he make an early announcement on this matter?

Mr. BALDWIN: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for Leigh on the 22nd May.

Mr. KILEY: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that when an announcement is made in a trade paper about application being made to impose a duty, it creates a certain amount of unrest and concern to that trade? Why cannot he make an announcement when he comes to a decision?

Mr. BALDWIN: I do not agree with the hon. Member. A great many announcements appear and are taken for what they are worth.

Mr. KILEY: Did the right hon. Gentleman not make a reference to the imposition of duty on a certain article and to the import of that article, showing the results of such an announcement?

Mr. HOGGE: Does my right hon. Friend's last answer apply to Government announcements?

Mr. BALDWIN: I think the remark was of general application.

CHEMICALS.

Dr. MURRAY: 42.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the statement by the Dean of the Faculty of Science in University College, London, that certain chemicals are unobtainable in this country, and have to be imported from Germany and duty paid on them, he will consider the expediency of seeking powers to exempt such chemicals from the operation of the Safeguarding of Industries Act?

Mr. BALDWIN: My attention has not previously been called to the particular statement mentioned, but I am aware that certain chemicals are not at present manufactured in this country—a fact which was, of course, one of the main reasons for the enactment of the Safeguarding of Industries Act. I would remind the hon. Member that the particular aspect. of the matter to which he draws attention was fully discussed during the passage of the Act, and that an Amendment giving the powers which he now suggests did not meet with the approval of the House.

AGRICULTURAL IMPLEMENTS.

Mr. G. TERRELL: 43.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention
has been called to a speech delivered on the 9th June, in the Chippenham Division of Wiltshire, in which it was reported to have been stated that in consequence of the Safeguarding of Industries Act if an English farmer wanted to buy cheap agricultural implements he had to pay through the nose for them or else buy the English product at whatever price the maker might like to charge him; and whether such is the consequence of the Act?

Mr. BALDWIN: I have seen the speech to which my hon. Friend refers, but, inasmuch as agricultural implements are not included under the Schedule to Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and no Order has been made applying Part II of the Act to that class of goods, the statement which he quotes appears to be entirely unfounded.

Mr. HANNON: Would the right hon. Gentleman give the House the name of the person who made this speech?

Dr. MURRAY: Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman and the Government refused an Amendment that would

—
From Germany.
From Japan.


1913.
1920.
1921.
1913.
1920.
1921.



Doz. prs.
Doz. prs.
Doz. prs.
Doz. prs.
Doz. prs
Doz. prs.


Gloves of woven fabric—








Silk
*
5,214
19,641
*
36
—


Other
*
11,054
122,215
*
19,679
—


Gloves, knitted, netted or crocheted (including gloves of knitted fabric)—








Of cotton or of which the chief value is cotton.
†2,511,009
80,295
530,968
—
189,305
14,829


Of wool or of which the chief value is wool.
*
1,230
3,540
*
11,483
—


Of other textile materials, not woven.
*
2,432
9,231
*
—
—


* Cannot be stated.


† Including gloves of cotton woven fabric.

Oral Answers to Questions — TIMBER SALE (CANADA).

Mr. T. THOMSON: 10.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether tenders were taken by the Government for the recent sale of 10,000 standards of spruce lying in Canada; if so, how many tenders were received, and was the highest accepted; if tenders were not

have prevented farmers being mulcted in these sums?

Mr. DOYLE: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the speech referred to was made by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy)?

Oral Answers to Questions — FABRIC GLOVES FROM GERMANY AND JAPAN.

Mr. MOSLEY: 45.
asked the President of the Board of Trade the quantity of fabric gloves imported from Germany and. Japan, respectively, in the years 1913, 1920, and 1921?

Mr. BALDWIN: With the hon. Member's permission, I will have the figures circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following are the figures:

The following statement shows the quantity of gloves of textile materials imported into the United Kingdom, consigned from Germany and Japan respectively in the years 1913, 1920, and 1921 so far as particulars are available:

taken, why was this precaution omitted; and, in future, will the Board of Trade see that, in the sale of public stores, tenders are always taken prior to any sale being effected?

Mr. BALDWIN: No tenders were taken for this timber, which had been on offer for many months without success.
Sale by tender is only advisable when specifications can be guaranteed, which is impossible in the case of these stocks.

Oral Answers to Questions — EXPORTS.

Major GLYN: 18.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what are the comparative figures for the fortnight ending 7th June of the export of coal, pig-iron, manufactured articles of machinery of all kinds, and of piece goods, and the corresponding figures for the same periods in 1921, 1920, and 1914?

Mr. BALDWIN: Particulars of exports from the United Kingdom are not available for periods of a fortnight. The figures are made up for periods of one month, and those for the month of May, 1922, 1921, and 1920, are published in the accounts relating to trade and navigation of the United Kingdom for May, 1922, while those for May, 1914, appear in the issue of the accounts for that month. These publications are available in the Library; but if my hon. and gallant Friend would care for such assistance as the Board's Statistical Department might be able to give, perhaps he would call at the offices of the Board in Great George Street.

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL SERVICE ARBITRATION BOARD.

Mr. C. WHITE: 25.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the unrest and dissatisfaction amongst civil servants in consequence of the abolition of the Civil Service Arbitration Board; and whether, as the amount saved by its abolition is less than £4,000 per annum, he will at once re-establish it and thus restore confidence to the civil servants concerned?

Sir J. BAIRD: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for Leith on the 24th May, to which I have nothing to add.

Mr. WHITE: Is the hon. Baronet aware of the fact that this is causing very great dissatisfaction and destroying the confidence of these people, and is acting detrimentally on the work they are called upon to do?

Sir J. BAIRD: I am afraid I cannot agree with the hon. Member in his description of the situation.

Oral Answers to Questions — HAGUE CONFERENCE.

Mr. L'ESTRANGE MALONE: 26.
asked the Prime Minister whether any special representative is accompanying the British Delegation to the Hague Conference to represent the interests of the Russian bondholders and/or of British oil concessionaires; and, if so, who are the representatives?

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Cecil Harmsworth): Mr Leslie Urquhart, President of the Association of British Creditors of Russia, is representing the interests of Russian bondholders. There is at present no representative of British oil concessionaires.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: For what reason has this gentleman been chosen to go to The Hague; and is he on the official Commission of the British Government?

Mr. HARMSWORTH: He is particularly expert on the subject to come under discussion.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Did not the hon. Gentleman say that this gentleman represented, first of all, private bondholders, and should he not be there in his private capacity and not as one of the Government officials?

Mr. HARMSWORTH: Mr. Urquhart is not a Government official.

Oral Answers to Questions — JUNIOR LORDSHIP OF THE TREASURY.

Mr. C. WHITE: 28.
asked the Prime Minister whether the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow (Mr. MacCallum Scott) is now discharging the duties formerly performed by the Chancellor of the Duchy a Lancaster and, if so, when he will be appointed to the Junior Lordship of the Treasury, which Las been vacant since 6th April?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My hon. Friend the Member for the Bridgeton Division
of Glasgow has been appointed an Official Whip (unpaid). The Junior Lordship of the Treasury has not yet been filled.

Mr. WHITE: Is that because the right hon. Gentleman fears the verdict of the electors?

Mr. HOGGE: Does my right hon. Friend mean by his reply that in the selection of the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division to the position to which he has been appointed, the Government are going to appoint an extra Junior Lord of the Treasury?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No; I meant exactly what I said. I have given the House all the information in my possession.

Mr. HOGGE: Does that mean then, that there still is vacant in the Government a Junior Lordship of the Treasury?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir.

Dr. MURRAY: Is not that depriving Scotland of representation in the Treasury?

Oral Answers to Questions — NAVY, ARMY AND AIR FORCE INSTITUTES.

Mr. BRIANT: 32.
asked the Prime Minister if the accounts of the Expeditionary Force canteens and the Army and Navy Canteen Boards for 1921 are yet compiled; and, if so, when they will be published for the information of the public?

The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): I have been asked to answer this question. As regards trading accounts for 1921, neither the Expeditionary Force canteens nor the Navy and Army Canteen Board were in operation during that year, the conduct of Service institutes having been taken over by the Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes as from the 1st January, 1921. As regards the publication of the accounts of the latter organisation for last. year's operations, it is hoped that this balance-sheet will be completed before the end of the summer.

Oral Answers to Questions — TRADE BOARDS.

Mr. HINDS: 33.
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government intend to introduce legislation this Session to
give effect to the recommendations contained in the Report of Lord Cave's Committee as to trade boards?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Sir Montague Barlow): I have been asked to reply. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the reply which was given to a similar question by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for York (Sir J Butcher) on Thursday last.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONALITY LAW.

Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: 34.
asked the Prime Minister when the Bill for the amendment of the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act, 1914, which has been submitted to and approved by the Governments of the Dominions, will be introduced into Parliament; and whether facilities will be given for its early passage into law, having regard to the fact that it is uncontentious, that it has been approved by the Governments of the Dominions, and that its passage is being eagerly looked forward to by large numbers of British subjects who have their homes in foreign lands?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Notice of the introduction of this Bill was given today, and we will take it as soon as we can—I hope at an early date.

Oral Answers to Questions — AUSTRIA.

Colonel NEWMAN: 35.
asked the Prime Minister whether the financial and economic position of Austria formed a subject of discussion at the Genoa Convention; will he say if any policy was agreed on whereby the necessary help could be given to Austria; and if so, is the Government of the United States of America a consenting party to such policy?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Informal discussions took place between the interested Delegations at Genoa with a view to securing the release of the liens on Austrian assets, but no final conclusions were reached. The Government of the United States of America has obtained the necessary powers to effect release and is, I understand, ready to release its liens as soon as the other
Governments concerned have agreed to release theirs.

Colonel NEWMAN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how soon the other Governments will come to an agreement, as the matter is very urgent?

Colonel ASHLEY: Are the conversations about the state of Austria being carried on, in view of the terrible state of affairs in that unhappy country?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The British Government has from the first done all it can, and I think perhaps more than any other Government, to prevent a catastrophe in Austria, but I cannot, without notice, say what is the absolute position at this moment—whether conversations are actually proceeding or not. I am afraid I have forgotten what was the question put to me by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Finchley (Colonel Newman).

Colonel NEWMAN: I asked how soon these other Powers will come to a decision in regard to Austria.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am often asked how soon our own Government will come to a decision, and I have sometimes found that a difficult question to answer. If I am to be asked about all the other Governments, I am afraid that is more than I am equal to.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: When these liens are all released, will it enable us to get better security for our loan to Austria than the tapestries which we have at the present time?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman has had this position explained to him several times. The object of releasing the liens is to enable a loan to be floated to stabilise the financial position in Austria. If that is done, the advance which we have already made would be taken into account in the new loan.

Colonel NEWMAN: 36.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that, in order to prevent economic disaster, Austrian opinion favours the inclusion of Austria in the German Republic; whether this is forbidden by the terms of the Versailles or other treaty; and whether, in
consequence, the Allied Powers, who are denying to Austria the right of self-determination, will give her the help necessary to avert ruin?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Under Article 88 of the Treaty of St. Germain and Article 80 of the Treaty of Versailles, the independence of Austria is inalienable, without the consent of the Council of the League of Nations. The Allied Powers have from time to time advanced considerable sums to Austria to aid the Government of that country to reconstruct its finances.

Mr. MILLS: Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any assurance as to whether or not the Allies have reconsidered the question of giving Austria at least one port of access to the sea, and is he not of opinion that that might aid in the recovery of Austria?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That does not arise out of the question.

Mr. MILLS: No, but it arises out of the condition of Austria.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member wilt please put his question down.

Oral Answers to Questions — AUTUMN SESSION.

Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON: 37.
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether it is intended that there should be an autumn: Session this year?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I should be glad to avoid an Autumn Session if possible, but it would seem almost inevitable that an Autumn Session should be held, for the consideration of legislation in regard to Ireland.

Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: If in any event we have got to have an Autumn Session, will the Lord Privy Seal do his utmost to close down the present Session at the end of July?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think it is clearly in the general interests of the House that if, as I fear is inevitable, we should have an Autumn Session, we should close the present Session as rapidly as possible, but that is a matter in which the Government are powerless without the co-operation of the House. I can only hope that the House will give
us that co-operation, because we have no great contentious Measures before the House at the present time. They are businesslike Measures, which I hope may meet with general assent.

Mr. L. MALONE: Is there to be a General Election after the Autumn Session?

Oral Answers to Questions — EDUCATION.

TEACHERS' SUPERANNUATION.

Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: 38.
asked the Lord Privy Seal when the Debate on the School Teachers (Superannuation) Bill will be resumed?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I hope to arrange for the resumption of the Debate next week.

ADMINISTRATION.

Mr. HURD: 49.
asked the President of the Board of Education if his attention has been called to the series of resolutions adopted at the annual meeting of the Association of Educational Committees regarding the growth of central bureaucratic control and its effect in discouraging local educational initiative and efficiency; whether he is aware that a local authority cannot put an additional radiator into a class room at a cost of about £3 without submitting plans to London, and that more money is at times spent on unnecessary deputations to Whitehall than would have done the job over and over again; and what steps he is taking in the way of reform?

The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Fisher): I have seen a newspaper report of the proceedings at the Sheffield meeting of the Association of Education Committees. I am not aware that plans are required by the Board for £3 radiators, or that there is any justification for sending deputations to London to obtain sanction for such minor improvements. The Board have found it necessary, in view of the conditions, to scrutinise very closely local expenditure which they will be asked to recognise for the calculation of grant, and I believe that in this respect they have taken the course which is most in the interests of education and its future development.

Mr. HURD: Are not these local people, who have the handling of education, likely to know best how local efficiency in education is to be attained?

Mr. FISHER: I wish I could say that was always the case.

Mr. HURD: Where it is the case, will the right hon. Gentleman give encouragement to local people to show their capacity?

Mr. FISHER: Certainly, the fullest encouragement is given.

TEACHERS (WAR WORK).

Mr. HANNON: 50.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware of the number of teachers in primary and secondary schools in this country who, being physically unfit for active service, previous to conscription entered war work of various kinds essential to the defence of the nation and Empire; and whether the period of absence from actual school duties of such teachers wil be recognised in the examination of claims for superannuation?

Mr. FISHER: The Elementary School Teachers (War Service Superannuation) Act, 1914, provided that any service by a certificated teacher in connection with naval or military operations in the late War, which the Board considered might properly be treated in the same manner as actual naval or military service, might be recorded for the purpose of the Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation) Acts, 1898–1912, and the Act of 1918 gave the Board power to treat such service by other teachers as well as certificated teachers as recognised or qualifying service for the purposes of the Act of 1918. Each case must, however, be considered on its merits.

Mr. HANNON: Does that mean that every service, except actual naval and military service, is excluded?

Mr. FISHER: No, Sir.

Mr. HANNON: 51.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the number of teachers who, having been declared medically unfit for active service during the process of the recent great War, relinquished their professional duties and. took up clerical and other work in connection with War organisation; whether these teachers were given to understand when they thus took such duties in re-
lation to the War as they were competent to discharge that their professional prospects would not be affected; whether the Ministry of Education has now decided that the period of their absence from school work must not be included in fixing their position in the scale of salaries to which they are entitled; whether he is aware that this decision on the part of the Minister of Education means that in the Birmingham area teachers have suffered individual losses of salary amounting to as much as £40 per annum; that, in consequence of this decision in regard to the War services which they performed, the point of time at which they reach their respective maximum salaries has been extended by several years; and that the loss inflicted upon individuals may amount to several hundreds of pounds; and whether the Government will take immediate steps to remedy this grievance on the part of the teaching profession by recognising in the case of those teachers who were not conscripted and who are not conscientious objectors, as in the case of all other services, their periods of War service as being included towards promotion and payment of salary?

Mr. FISHER: My attention has been called to a number of cases of the kind referred to. The Board are in no way responsible for any misunderstanding such as is indicated in the second part of the question. The Burnham Committee recommended that full allowance should be made for any service with the Forces of the Crown, and I have issued a Circular, of which I will send the hon. Member a copy, indicating the extent to which the Board have been able to accept this recommendation. I cannot see my way to extend the scope of the Circular so as to include War service other than service with the Forces of the Crown.

Mr. HANNON: Does not my right hon. Friend think that great injustice will be inflicted on these teachers—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]—in view of their work at a time of stress?

Mr. FISHER: There is a very clear distinction to be drawn between actual War and other services.

PROVISION OF MEALS.

Mr. CHARLES EDWARDS: 56.
asked the President of the Board of Education
whether he is aware that a Circular has been sent to the Aberdare education authority instructing them that the Education (Provision of Meals) Act is not to be applied in connection with chronic or periodic depression; if he will state the conditions under which it can be applied if the above orders are observed; and whether a similar Circular has been sent to other education authorities?

Mr. FISHER: The hon. Member presumably refers to Circular which was issued to all local education authorities in England and Wales. I may refer the hon. Member to the answer given by me on 4th April to the hon. Member for North Newcastle, which states the general principles to be followed by local education authorities in this matter.

Oral Answers to Questions — WEST INDIES.

Mr. KILEY: 39.
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is prepared to provide an opportunity for discussing the Report recently issued by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies in regard to his recent visit to the West Indies?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. I regret that I cannot arrange for special facilities for this discussion. As, however, I announced on Thursday last, we hope to take the Colonial Office Vote on Thursday next.

Mr. KILEY: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that on Thursday evening there are many important subjects, such as Iraq and Palestine, which will crowd out any possible discussion on this Report?

Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that Thursday will be devoted to Colonial Office questions pure and simple, and not be taken up to a large extent by Irish questions?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, I cannot give a pledge of that kind. I am rather in the hands of the House. I am speaking at present without definite knowledge to guide me, hut if my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary should be in a position to make his statement on Thursday, it may be that the House would desire a discussion on Ireland, and in that case the Colonial Office Vote might have to be postponed.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: Do we understand that, if there is a discussion on Thursday on Ireland, it will not be on the ordinary Colonial Office Vote, because Thursday was asked for, as I think the right hon. Gentleman knows, by the Labour party for the discussion of Africa-n Colonial questions, and we do not want to have its place taken by a discussion on Ireland?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have no intention of using the Colonial Office Vote, or of attempting to obtain the Colonial Office Vote, after the Irish discussion. I think the Irish discussion would probably take place on an Irish Vote, but if for any reason the salary of my right hon. Friend were put-down, I should not think of closing the Colonial Office Vote after the Irish discussion, and we could put that down for another day.

Mr. KILEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider in what way the House can express any view on that very valuable Report issued by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies—a very valuable Report indeed?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have no doubt the hon. Gentleman's congratulations will be gratefully received by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it was-arranged that the Under-Secretary should open on Thursday with a general report on Colonial Office affairs, and that the Debate on the general question should take place first, and are we to understand that there is a question now of substituting for that speech by the Colonial Secretary himself on Ireland?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The House has shown a desire to have a statement by my right hon. Friend, at the earliest moment at which he can conveniently make it, upon Ireland, and the Government are attempting to conform to the wishes of the House in that respect. As far as I can see, Thursday is likely to be that day. If the House does not want his statement on Ireland, there is no reason why it should be made, but if it does want his statement on Ireland, then I think he must make it on Thursday, even if that involves a change in the business previously proposed.

Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly remember that the Colonial Office Vote is the only opportunity in the whole course of the year which we have in this House of discussing certain questions of the most urgent importance?

Colonel WEDGWOOD: is it, not usual or customary between the two Front Benches that these days of Supply should be allotted for the discussion of what the Opposition wants to have discussed, and as they have asked for this Vote for this special purpose, is it not rather irregular to use it for some other purpose?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have not yet said we would use this Vote for that purpose. I have said that if the House desires a discussion after hearing the statement of my right hon. Friend, I think that discussion must be taken on Thursday, whether on the salary of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State or on some other Vote, some Irish Vote. Of course, under ordinary circumstances Supply days are allocated in response to requests from the two sections of the Opposition, hut I have once before pointed out—and it is a matter which we must keep in mind—that the present distribution of parties in this House does not cause that to work in quite the normal way. We must have regard to very widespread views held outside the two parties who sit on those Benches immediately in front of me.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the desire for the Palestine discussion, which he suggested should take place on Thursday, but which, obviously, cannot take place now on that day?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not say it obviously cannot take place now. If the Colonial Office Vote be not taken, or, being taken, it be used as a vehicle for an Irish discussion, we must put the Colonial Office Vote down again. Perhaps my hon. Friend had better wait and see how matters develop between now and Thursday.

Oral Answers to Questions — COAL INDUSTRY.

AVERAGE OUTPUT PER MAN-SHIFT.

Mr. HANNON: 46.
asked the Secretary for Mines the average output of coal per shift during the first five months of the
present year; and whether he can show the comparison between these figures and the output in the corresponding months in the years 1907, 1913, and the five months preceding the Report of the Coal Industry Commission presided over by Mr. Justice Sankey?

The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr. Bridgeman): The average output of coal per man-shift of seven hours during the first five months of the present year was nearly 20 cwts., as compared with 19 cwts. per man-shift of eight hours during the five months preceding the Report of the Coal Industry Commission. Figures for the corresponding months of 1907 and 1913 are not available. During the latter half of 1913 the average output of coal per man-shift of eight hours was about 21 cwts.

Mr. HANNON: May I ask whether, in point of fact, the introduction of the seven hours' day has not been a very serious mistake in the industry?

NOTTS, DERBYSHIRE AND YORKSHIRE COAL-FIELDS (GEOLOGICAL SURVEY).

Major KELLEY: 47.
asked the Secretary for Mines whether the Geological Survey is to resume the resurveying of the Notts, Derbyshire, and Yorkshire coalfields; and whether any revised official estimate of the area of the concealed portions of those coalfields is to be issued to replace the Estimate made by the Royal Commission on Coal Supplies?

Mr. FISHER: This question concerns the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and I have accordingly been asked to reply. The resurvey of the Nottingham and Derbyshire coalfields has been completed. The resurvey of the Yorkshire coalfield may be started this year. The Estimate given by the Royal Commission on Coal Supplies in 1905 was not prepared by the Geological Survey, but the Survey issued, in 1913, a geological memoir on the concealed coalfield of Yorkshire and Nottingham, which included the information then available for publication. The records bearing on this matter are being kept up-to-date, and when sufficient new information is in hand, a revised edition of this memoir may be issued.

Mr. R. McLAREN: Will the right hon. Gentleman see to it that members
of the Survey take full advantage of all the colliery plans in the district before issuing their Report?

Mr. FISHER: I am sorry, I did not hear what the hon. Member said.

Mr. SPEAKER: Will the hon. Member be kind enough to put the question on the Paper?

COLLIERY VILLAGES.

Major KELLEY: 72.
asked the Minister of Health whether a scheme has recently been prepared for the building of colliery villages in Notts, Derbyshire, and elsewhere to the value of £1,000,000 or more; and what encouragement or financial assistance is the Government affording?

The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Alfred Mond): I am glad to say that an important scheme is being undertaken by an association of colliery owners, who are forming an industrial housing association, based upon the principle of trading without profit, with a programme which includes the erection of some 10,000 houses at the rate of 2,000 a year without any form of Government subsidy. The association proposes to make application for a loan from the Public Works Loan Board. I welcome this scheme as an indication that some of the large employers of labour recognise an obligation to provide houses for their work-people, and I hope the example will be largely followed.

Oral Answers to Questions — TRANSPORT.

RAILWAYS (NORTH-WESTERN AND MIDLAND GROUP) BILL.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: 40.
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will arrange for an early opportunity for the House to debate the Special Report of the Committee on Group F of Private Bills on the action of the Ministry of Transport in connection with the Railways (North Western and Midland Group) Bill?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. I see no prospect of giving special facilities for this discussion.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Will the Vote for the Ministry of Transport be put down at an early date, in order that we may discuss the extraordinary action of the
Ministry of Transport, causing great waste of public money and public time by their amazing muddle over this question?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My hon. and gallant Friend has drawn an indictment in the form of a supplementary question. I believe his indictment to be without foundation and capable of easy disproof, but I cannot undertake to find special facilities, or to put down the Vote for the Ministry of Transport, unless it be very widely asked for in the ordinary course, in order to enable my hon. and gallant Friend to pursue his indictment to the point of proof.

Colonel ASHLEY: Surely when the Chairman of a Committee of the House of Commons issues such a statement as that, it is right that this House should have an early opportunity of discussing it, and of seeing whether the Chairman is justified or not in the grave statements he makes?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It is extremely easy for my hon. and gallant Friend, or anybody else, to suggest that the Government should find facilities for any discussion any section of the House desires, but if I were to comply with all those demands, the House would never rise.

Sir RYLAND ADKINS: Is there any method known to my right hon. Friend by which the Report of a Private Bill Committee, indicating that they have formed their opinion before they have heard all the evidence, can be discussed in this House?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It would be a very singular Report from the Committee, and I should hesitate to accept its conclusions.

Mr. BETTERTON: 57.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether he is aware that the Railways (North Western and Midland Group) Bill has been dropped after 10 days' hearing before a Private Bill Committee as a result of an objection by the Ministry of Transport first disclosed after 10 days' hearing before the Committee; and why was this objection not taken earlier so that the parties concerned might have been saved the heavy and needless expense to which they have been put by the delay referred to, and the hon. Members of the Committee spared many days of fruitless labour?

Mr. INSKIP: 59.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport when he first had an opportunity of considering the principle upon which rates were proposed to be fixed by the promoters of the London and North Western Road Transport Bill when the filled copy of the Bill was first in his possession; when the decision was made to take objection before the Committee to the principle upon which rates were fixed in the Bill; and when the decision was first communicated to the promoters or to the Committee?

Major GLYN: 61.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether his attention has been called to the terms of the Special Report presented by the Committee on Group F of Private Bills with regard to the Railways (North Western and Midland Group) Bill; and what reply his Department has to make with reference to that Report?

Mr. MacVEAGH: 62
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether he has had an opportunity of considering the terms of the Special Report unanimously presented to the House by the Committee on Group F of Private Bills, wherein it is complained that unnecessary expense was caused to the parties on the Railways (North Western and Midland Group) Bill owing to the delay on the part of the Ministry of Transport in notifying their abjection to the principle on which it was proposed in the Bill to make charges for the conveyance of merchandise by road; whether he can explain why the Ministry did not criticise the bases of charges in their original Report of 15th May; why they failed to do so at the interview with the railway companies' representatives on 10th May; and why the criticism was withheld until the tenth day of the Committee's proceedings; whether he is aware that to alter the Bill in the direction indicated by the Ministry of Transport would have involved a violation of the Standing Orders of this House; whether the authorities of the House were consulted with regard to the Standing Orders before the belated criticism was offered; and whether he can state if any representations were made to the Ministry of Transport, and, if so, by whom, with regard to the alleged necessity for giving
the railway group the opportunity of acquiring Government-owned or partly-owned lorries?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Mr. Neal): I would refer hon. Members generally to the full written reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for the Stirling Division (Major Glyn) on the 15th instant. My attention has been called to the Special Report, but for the reasons given in that reply I am unable to agree that my views were not disclosed at the appropriate time. The Chairman of the Committee consulted me as to the time when the witness from the Ministry of Transport should be called, and also took the views of counsel representing the various parties concerned in the case. As the result he wrote Sir George Beharrell definitely fixing the 12th June (at the close of the promoters' case) as the date upon which he was to attend. I cannot agree that the promoters' decision to withdraw this Bill was necessitated by Sir George's evidence. With reference to the additional points raised by the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. MacVeagh) I am not aware that the introduction of necessary safeguards in regard to the basis of charge into this Bill would have involved a violation of Standing Orders. The Chairman was clearly of the same opinion, since he urged that some alternative basis to that proposed in the Bill should be suggested. The answer to the last part of the question put by my hon. and learned Friend for South Down is in the negative.

Mr. BETTERTON: Will the hon. Gentleman say why, at the meeting on 10th May, between the representatives of the railway companies and the representatives of the Ministry of Transport, the point was taken by anyone that the principle on which the Bill was founded, namely, to take rail rates subject to certain modifications, was one which the Ministry could not accept?

Mr. NEAL: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for putting that point. On 4th May the promoters of the Bill printed an alternative Clause Six dealing with the matter in question. On 5th May they wrote asking for an interview with me. The matter was handed over by me to be dealt with officially. On 10th May a very
long interview took place between the principal officials of my Department and the promoters. It was pointed out to the promoters at that time—as I had pointed out on the Second Reading—that there was extreme difficulty in applying Part III of the Railways Act to road charges. On 12th May (Friday) the promoters presented to the Ministry, late in the day, for the first time, the Clause as it appeared in the Bill considered by the Committee. It was that altered Clause, that was not in existence on 10th May, that was the foundation of most of the criticism of Sir George Beharrel in the evidence he gave to the Committee at the request of the Chairman. Therefore, it was quite impossible for this matter to have been discussed on the 10th, seeing it was only subsequently raised by the Clause as presented on the 12th.

Mr. MacVEAGH: Will the hon. Gentleman explain how it happened that he suggested to the House on the Second Reading that the standard charges for railway traffic would be a totally improper standard to apply to the carriage of goods by road, whereas the witness that he sent to the Committee upstairs. Sir George Beharrel, speaking on behalf of my hon. Friend, said that it was not an improper, but a proper standard?

Mr. NEAL: I do not think my hon. and learned Friend is intending to quote what I said on the Second Reading—

Mr. MacVEAGH: Yes, I have it here.

Mr. NEAL: No, I think not! I think my hon. and learned Friend will find that I did not use those words. What I did point out to the House, on the Second Reading, was that it would be exceedingly difficult to base road charges, which arise from road costs, upon railway charges which arise from a. different set of costs. As to Sir George Beharrel's evidence, he was not dealing with rail charges, he was dealing with railway charges which, by their very latest proposal, the companies were proposing to strip of some of the material elements. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]

Mr. MacVEAGH: Arising out of that point—

Mr. SPEAKER: There are many questions down, and I think we must now leave this one.

Mr. MacVEAGH: I was only endeavouring to refresh the memory of the hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary.

ROADS DETERIORATION.

Viscount CURZON: 58.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether the progressive and rapid deterioration caused to certain of the roads of this country by heavy solid-tyred motor vehicles is receiving the attention of the Ministry of Transport; and, if so, whether the Ministry will take steps, either by regulation or legislation, to remedy such a state of affairs?

Mr. NEAL: The effect of all kinds of mechanically-propelled vehicles upon road surfaces is constantly receiving the attention of the Ministry. The Departmental Committee on the Taxation and Regulation of Road Vehicles, in their second interim Report, dated 17th March last, dealt exhaustively with the whole question of the regulation of mechanically-propelled road vehicles of all types, and I would refer my Noble and gallant Friend to this Report. The Committee's recommendations are now under consideration.

SOUTH-EASTERN AND CHATHAM RAILWAY (ELECTRIFICATION).

Mr. GILBERT: 63.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether the representatives of the West Kent Electric Company, whose application for permission to erect a capital generating station at Erith is now before the Electricity Commissioners, had an interview with the Commissioners on the subject towards the end of last or the beginning of this year; if he will state whether the interview was an official or private one; if shorthand notes of the proceedings were taken; and if it is the custom of the Commissioners to grant such interviews to all applicants who have to appear before them at public inquiries?

Mr. NEAL: I understand that the Electricity Commissioners have had more than one interview with representatives of the company. These interviews were of a semi-official nature, and shorthand notes were not taken. It is the custom of the Commissioners to grant interviews if by so doing they can advance the public interest.

Mr. GILBERT: 65.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether alternative proposals have been submitted to the Electricity Commissioners by the West Kent Electric Company and the County of London Electric Supply Company, respectively, for the supply of power for the electrical working of the South-Eastern and Chatham Railway Companies' suburban lines at more favourable rates than the railway companies could themselves generate power; whether these alternative offers were, however, made after the railway companies had disclosed their figures; whether, if the Commissioners refuse the application of the railway companies for permission to put up their own stations, the companies will have to abandon the electrification of their lines or accept one or other of the alternative offers in question; whether any loss that may result from the supply of power by either the West Kent Company or the County Company at non-remunerative rates will have to be made good at the expense of the general consumer; if he will state what provision will be made in this event to protect the interests of public users other than the railway companies; and if he will state whether, if the railway companies' application is refused and they subsequently decide to accept the offer of the County Company or the West Kent Company, a further local inquiry will be held under Section 11 of the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919?

Mr. NEAL: An exhaustive public inquiry on this subject has just been concluded by the Commissioners, who, before arriving at their decision, will take into consideration all the facts of the case. Pending that decision, it is not possible to deal with particular points raised in the question. The reply to the last part of the question is in the negative.

Oral Answers to Questions — EGYPT (ZAGHLOUL PASHA).

Mr. MILLS: 66.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the degree of banishment imposed upon Zaghloul Pasha has been or is likely to be reviewed; what is the present state of his health; and what is the charge brought against him?

Mr. HARMSWORTH: The policy of His Majesty's Government regarding Zaghloul Pasha's deportation has been frequently declared and has undergone no change. A report dated the 5th June indicates that his health is not being adversely affected by his residence in the Seychelles Islands. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the hon. Member for Barnard Castle on 9th February.

Mr. MILLS: Is it not the fact that all the gentlemen associated in the negotiations on Egypt are unanimous in their desire for the return of this gentleman?

Mr. HARMSWORTH: No, Sir. I do not think so; that is quite an incorrect statement.

Oral Answers to Questions — RUSSIA (BRITISH PROPERTY).

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: 67.
asked the Tinder-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that in cases where the property of English traders in Russia has been stolen by that Government, the Russian creditors necessarily left unpaid are now taking proceedings against the English firms in this country; whether there is no means of preventing such proceedings or directing that the amount of the debt should be set off against the assets in Russia of such English firms; and whether, if there is no legislation at prevent available, the Government will take steps to safeguard the interests of British subjects in this respect?

Mr. HARMSWORTH: A case has been brought to my notice of the nature outlined in the first part of the question; I regret that there is no means of preventing the proceedings. As regards the question of any future action it is not possible to make a statement at this juncture; the question will, however, be submitted for consideration without delay to the British experts now assembled at The Hague.

Mr. MILLS: Can the hon. Gentleman state to how many States or Governments could this epithet "stolen property" be applied since the Armistice?

Mr. HARMSWORTH: No, Sir. I have no information.

Oral Answers to Questions — WREXHAM CORPORATION (GENERATING STATION).

Mr. GILBERT: 64.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether the Wrexham Corporation have applied for consent to extend their generating station; whether the Electricity Commissioners have refused to sanction such extension, and have called upon the corporation to take what further power they require from the North Wales Power Company: whether the latter company have quoted a price of £6 a k. w. and 75d. a unit, which is the maximum price which they are allowed to charge; and whether, in view of the attitude taken up by the power company in the matter, the Commissioners propose to reconsider their decision withholding consent to the extension of the Wrexham undertaking?

Mr. NEAL: The hon. Member has been misinformed. The consent asked for by the Wrexham Corporation was granted by the Electricity Commissioners. I understand, however, that the Corporation subsequently decided to obtain a bulk supply and are in negotiations with the Company.

Oral Answers to Questions — GREECE AND TURKEY.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: 68.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information regarding the bombarding of Samsun and other towns on the Pontine coast by Greek warships; whether any casualties were caused among non-combatants; and whether any American property was damaged by the bombardment and American or other European citizens killed and wounded?

Mr. HARMSWORTH: His Majesty's Government have received no information regarding the bombardment of other towns on the Pontine coast, and no details regarding the bombardment of Samsun which would enable me to add to the information which I gave to the hon. Member for Yeovil on this subject last Wednesday.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: When does the hon. Gentleman expect to have the information about this matter, and may I put a further question dawn later?

Mr. HARMSWORTH: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put down his question again on Wednesday, I will endeavour to give him further information.

Oral Answers to Questions — REGENT'S PARK.

Major BARNETT: 69.
asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether it is proposed to replace the gates opposite Gloucester Gate, Regent's Park, which were removed for military reasons during the War; and, if not, whether, having regard to the large number of pedestrians (including thousands of young children) who enter and leave Regent's Park at this point and the dangers to which they are exposed by fast motor traffic, he will consider the desirability of providing a refuge there?

Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. GILMOUR (for the First Commissioner of Works): The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The question of erecting a refuge at Gloucester Gate, Regent's Park, has recently been carefully considered, but it is not considered that the traffic at this point is sufficiently great to make the provision of a refuge necessary, nor have there been any accidents at this spot.

Major BARNETT: Does my hon. Friend know that the Office of Woods arid Forests has asked for information about this matter, and that there is a general feeling in the district that for the safety of the public something ought to be done in the direction I have indicated?

Sir J. GILMOUR: The matter has been quite recently inquired into, but I will ask again.

Oral Answers to Questions — ROYAL PARKS (AGED EMPLOYES).

Mr. KENNEDY: 70.
asked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, how many workmen employed in the royal parks and gardens of 70 years of age and over have been retained in the service; whether any workmen of that age whose retention in the service was recommended by responsible officials as being capable
of efficiently performing a full day's work have been dismissed; and, if so, why these official recommendations were disregarded?

Sir J. GILMOUR: There are now no workmen in the Royal parks and gardens of 70 years of age or over. The First Commissioner, with whom the final decision rests, considered the matter very carefully, and reluctantly came to the conclusion that it was essential for the efficient maintenance of the parks to replace these men by younger and more active men.

Oral Answers to Questions — BOROUGH EXTENSION.

Major KELLEY: 71.
asked the Minister of Health whether he proposes to institute an inquiry into the relations of counties and county boroughs, the propriety of extending the latter, and the possibility of substituting a less expensive method of deciding applications for enlargement of county boroughs?

Sir A. MOND: As stated in the Debate on the Estimates, I propose that the question of the constitution and extension of county boroughs shall be referred to a Royal Commission.

Oral Answers to Questions — RENT RESTRICTIONS ACT.

Mr. MORGAN JONES: 74.
asked the Minister of Health whether he has received representations from local governing bodies urging that, in view of the change in economic conditions which has come about since the percentage increase of rent was fixed under the Rent Restrictions Act, and having regard to the present financial difficulties of the middle and working classes, the Government. should immediately introduce legislation for the purpose of materially reducing the percentage by which rents can be increased over those of pre-War; and, if so, whether the Minister can give the assurance that legislation of such a nature is in contemplation by the Government?

Sir A. MOND: I have received representations in this sense from eight Metropolitan borough councils and 16 urban district councils. Legislation in the sense suggested by the hon. Member is not contemplated.

Oral Answers to Questions — EX-SERVICE MEN.

IMPROVERSHIPS.

Captain BOWYER: 77.
asked the Minister of Labour what percentage of disabled ex-service men who finished their training are found improverships; and what percentage are being thrown upon the labour market without any improvership being found?

Sir M. BARLOW: The number of disabled ex-service men who have been trained in trades requiring improverships is 22,500. Of these the number who have been sent out from training establishments and still await improverships is 2,500, a proportion of whom had already been found an improvership, but have lost it owing to shortage of work. By employing special canvassers and by other means we have, notwithstanding the severe depression of trade, found 5,538 improverships since 1st September, 1921. We are continuing our efforts, and I hope that the revival of trade will enable us to find improverships for all the 2,500 men referred to above.

INSTRUCTIONAL FACTORIES.

Captain BOWYER: 78.
asked the Minister of Labour whether any and, if so, which Government instructional factories are being, or have been, closed down; how many disabled ex-service men are still on the list awaiting training; and when does he hope to finish the waiting list?

Sir M. BARLOW: My right hon. Friend has approved the closure in the near future of the Government instructional factories at, Preston and Cardiff for the reason that there is adequate accommodation available at other centres for men passed for training. The number of disabled ex-service men on the list of men awaiting training on 30th May was 23,995. The rate at which these men can be placed in training depends upon the capacity of the trades to accept them, but ample facilities for training are available.

Captain GEE: How does the hon. Gentleman reconcile his statement with the fact that there are 23,000 men still awaiting training?

Sir M. BARLOW: The difficulty in the training of the men is due to the falling off in trade, and not to the want of accommodation.

Oral Answers to Questions — LIGHT METAL LIMBS.

Major COHEN: 80.
asked the Minister of Pensions how many of the new light metal limbs adopted by the Ministry as a result of the Williamson Committee's Report have been issued; and how many have been recommended or applied for?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): The number of light metal limbs issued since the date of the Williamson Committee's Report is 1,072. In addition, 272 have been recommended or applied for, and are at present under construction.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

STANDING COMMITTEE A.

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A (added in respect of the Trade Union Act (1913) Amendment Bill): Dr. Macnamara.

Report to lie upon the Table.

Orders of the Day — FINANCE BILL.

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Duty on Tea.)

In lieu of the duty of customs payable on tea imported into Great Britain or Ireland there shall, subject to the provisions of Section eight of the Finance Act, 1919, (which relates to Imperial preferential rates), be charged, levied and paid as from the fifteenth clay of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-two, until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, the following duty, that is to say:—

Tea, the lb.
…
…
eightpence.

Mr. HOGGE: In accordance with the usual custom, may I ask you, Mr. Chairman, for the guidance of the Committee, which Amendments you propose to call?

The CHAIRMAN: I propose to call on the hon. and gallant Member (Major Barnes) to move the first Amendment, to insert, after the word "or" ["or Ireland"], the word "Northern." With regard to the second Amendment on the Paper, standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Aberdeen (Major M. Wood), to leave out the words
subject to the provisions of Section eight of the Finance Act, 1919 (which relates to imperial preference rates)
I shall call on that Amendment conditionally, as I shall explain later. The third Amendment I shall call will be when we come to Clause 2, and it will be the first Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson), leave out "£1 8s." and insert "£1 3s. 4d."

Major BARNES: I beg to move, after the word "or" ["or Ireland"], to insert the word "Northern."
The effect of this Amendment would be to exclude Southern Ireland from the Bill. I am moving this Amendment because this is thought to be a convenient opportunity for the Government to explain the present relationship of this country with Southern Ireland in matters of taxation. We now appear to be passing a Bill imposing upon the people of Southern Ireland certain taxes. If I understand the position created by the
Irish Free State (Agreement) Act and the election which has recently taken place, there has come into being in Southern Ireland a Parliament which has itself full taxing powers. What seems to be taking place is, that we are acting here as part of the United Kingdom and we are proposing to impose taxes upon a part of Ireland which is itself now vested with full taxing powers. The Chancellor apparently does not agree with me. It may he that what I am stating is not the fact, but, if that be so, then surely it is all the more desirable that the right hon. Gentleman should take this opportunity of letting us know what is the exact position. Since we passed the Finance Act of last year three events have taken place which directly affect our taxing powers over Southern Ireland. If I may, I will trace them back in order of time. First, there is the draft Constitution, then there is the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act, which was passed on the 31st March, 1922, and finally there is the Treaty which forms the Schedule to that Act, and out of which the Act arose. Under that Treaty, full Dominion powers were proposed to he conferred on Southern Ireland. Full Dominion powers give it the right to impose its own taxation, and, if I may refer the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Committee to Section 1 of the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act, Sub-section (2), they will see it is there laid down that, when a Parliament has been elected in Southern Ireland, that Parliament shall, as respects matters within the jurisdiction of the Provisional Government, have power to make laws in the same manner as the Parliament of the Irish Free State when constituted. The draft Constitution as it is presented to the House to-day does not enlarge the powers conferred by the Treaty, but, as I understand, it merely defines them. In the draft Constitution there is an Article dealing with the question of preparing the Budget. it is Article 35, which reads:
The Chamber shall, as soon as possible after the commencement of each financial year, consider the Budget of receipts and expenditure of the Irish Free State for that year, and, save in so far as may be provided by specific enactment in each case, the legislation required to give effect to the Budget of each year shall he re-enacted in that year.
That article clearly defines what is to be the business of the Chamber to-day. If I may refer the Committee to the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act, it will be
seen that it is clearly laid down in Section 1, Sub-section (1), that the Parliament which was elected during the last week shall, as respects matters within the jurisdiction of the Provisional Government, have power to make laws in like manner as the Parliament of the Irish Free State when constituted. It would appear, therefore, that the Parliament just elected as soon as it meets may, in the words of the draft Constitution, proceed to consider the Budget of receipts and expenditure of the Irish Free State and proceed with the legislation required to give effect to the Budget of that year. Therefore the position really appears to be this: that while we in this House are engaged on this Finance Bill and proceeding under it to impose taxation on Southern Ireland, the Parliament recently elected may, before this Bill gets through its stages in this House, proceed to frame its own Budget, to pass its own legislations and to impose its own taxes, That seems to be the situation which has been created by the events that have taken place since the introduction of this Finance Bill, because the whole thing, according to the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act, was contingent on the election of Parliament referred to in that Act.
When the Finance Bill came forward for its Second Reading there had been no such election, and there might have been no such election now if the election had not taken place, and then there would not have been a Parliament in Southern Ireland to exercise the powers which it undoubtedly has under the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act. I do not complain at all of the fact that when the Finance Bill was introduced it was introduced with the words as they appear in the Bill, but it does appear to me that a new situation has been created by the election of last week, and it is important to the House and to the people of Southern Ireland and of this country as well that the position should be made clear. What I understand has already taken place, is that under the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act the administration of these taxes has passed away from the Treasury. Again I see the Chancellor of the Exchequer shakes his head, and thus indicates that it is not so. I am speaking, of course, subject to his superior knowledge, but an Order in Council was passed on the 1st April this year which gave
power to the Ministry of Finance to collect and levy taxes, and in the papers I have seen something to the effect that another notable point about Irish finance is that the Free State Minister of Finance has already published a statement of revenue and expenditure. This would seem to denote that the officials of the two Treasuries have harmoniously accomplished the tremendously heavy task of separating the accounts, and, although much could not be deduced from the first figures, it was satisfactory to find that the revenue was being steadily collected, and that the new State has adopted the conventional method of compiling and publishing its accounts in the way which is traditional in Great Britain. Therefore taking that statement in connection with the Order in Council it would appear that the administration and collection of revenue and taxes has already passed away from this country to Southern Ireland. The object of this Amendment is really to ascertain whether the holding of the recent election and the formation of the Parliament that will ensue from it does not also, under the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act, transfer the question of legislation in regard to taxation to the Parliament now being formed. It seems to me that a situation exists which needs some explanation, and this Amendment has been put down for the purpose of giving the Chancellor of the Exchequer an opportunity of telling the Committee what is the exact position in regard to administration, and possibly also in regard to legislation in Ireland to-day.

4.0 P.M.

The CHANCELLOR of the EX-CHEQUER (Sir Robert Horne): I am not at all surprised that my hon. And gallant Friend should be desirous of having a debate upon this topic, because, indeed, it is one which at present requires some little elucidation. I do not think that many people in this country under-stand the precise stage which we have reached in setting up a new Constitution in Ireland, and what precisely are the powers which are being transferred to Ire-land, and what are the powers still vested in the British Parliament. We are at present in a provisional stage, and a provisional stage only. The new Irish Parliament has not been constituted. The Parliament which is being elected is not the Parliament to which he refers
and which will only be elected when a Constitution has been adopted in Ireland and a Parliament has been elected under that Constitution. That is the point where the confusion exists, but, once that is stated, the rest is a matter of simplicity.

Major BARNES: Might I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act says that the Parliament which has just been elected has the same powers to make laws as the Parliament of the Irish Free State when it is constituted? That is the point.

Sir R. HORNE: I think my hon. and gallant Friend will see if I just trace the steps through which we have gone in this matter. In the first place, there was an agreement which was made with the Irish representatives and with which the Committee are now very familiar. That was constituted by the Articles of Agreement for a Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland, signed by various representatives of the British Government and various representatives of the Irish Delegation. Under Article 17 it was provided:
By way of provisional arrangement for the administration of Southern Ireland during the interval which must elapse between the date hereof and the constitution of a Parliament and Government of the Irish Free State in accordance therewith"—
The Parliament which is there referred to is the Parliament which is to be elected under the new Constitution to be granted to Ireland. By way of provisional arrangement Orders in Council might be promulgated, and the Order in Council which was promulgated under Article 17 was the Statutory Rule and Order, the second article of which has been a matter of reference by my hon. and gallant Friend. Re referred to that second article, but he omitted to notice the very careful provisions of the first part, which are in these terms:
Nothing in this Order shall affect the enactments passed or to be passed relating to the imposition, assessment or collection of taxes except that all functions heretofore performed by existing Government Departments and officers in connection with the assessment, levying and collection of taxes, so far as levyable in Southern Ireland, shall, as from the date of transfer, be transferred to and become exercisable by Departments and officers of the Provisional Government.
That is the second article of the Order in
Council. Accordingly, the Order in Council carefully kept in the hands of the British Parliament the imposition of taxes. It is perfectly true, as my hon. and gallant Friend says, that the levying and assessment have been transferred to the Irish Government, but the imposition of taxes imposed by enactments already in existence and those to be passed was to remain in the British Parliament until there should be constituted the new Irish Parliament under a constitution which has yet to be approved. The Act, in dealing with this matter, referred very carefully in the same way to the fact that,
as respects matters within the jurisdiction of the Provisional Government, the Irish Parliament shall have power to make laws in like manner us the Parliament of the Irish Free State when constituted.
But that refers only to matters which are within the jurisdiction of the Provisional Government, and by the Order in Council the imposition of taxes was clearly excluded from the purview of the Provisional Government, and that, of course, was by arrangement. There is no dubiety in the minds of the Irish people. They fully realise that until their new Parliament has been constituted under the Constitution, the draft of which has been submitted to the Irish people, the British Parliament must impose the taxes, and that only when a new Irish Parliament is duly constituted will they be in a position to impose taxes. So much so is it, that when the Resolutions were passed through Parliament dealing with our Budget they were communicated to the representatives of the Irish people and were promulgated as showing what changes were being made, if any, in the taxation to which the Irish people themselves would be subjected. If this Amendment were to have effect, the result would be that the Irish people would find themselves within a short period without any power to collect any of the duties upon tea. You would have a different set of duties in existence in Northern Ireland and in Southern Ireland, with the necessary result that you would be compelled to set up before the period for which such an arrangement might be contemplated a Customs barrier between these two different parts of Ireland. I hope that what I have said has made the matter plain; indeed, between those who represent Southern Ireland and those who represent the British Parliament there is no doubt
upon this question, and everything is working harmoniously and smoothly.

Colonel NEWMAN: The Chancellor of the Exchequer has just told us that there is no misunderstanding in Southern Ireland, but I should like my position as a taxpayer in the South of Ireland made more clear. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that there is no question that the Imperial Parliament can impose taxes under the Order in Council on the taxpayers in Southern Ireland. That may be the ease, but does he say that the Imperial Parliament has the power or the right to remit taxation in Southern Ireland, because the cost of postage stamps has been reduced in Great Britain and not in the South of Ireland?

Sir R. HORNE: The postal rates are neither duties nor taxes.

Colonel NEWMAN: Does the right hon. Gentleman then simply confine himself to duties?

Sir R. HORNE: Certainly, and taxes.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: This Amendment is not brought forward in any partisan spirit. We are trying to better the relationship between this country and the Government of Southern Ireland with regard to taxation. The explanation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer makes it perfectly clear from his own point of view which is the strictly legal point of view. He read out the terms of the Order in Council and certain extracts from the Irish Free State Act, but we want more than the merely legal outlook. I must say that, in spite of the very lucid explanation, the position is not quite clear. Are the same duties really being collected in Southern Ireland? What becomes of them and by which of the two sections which over large areas in Ireland are contending for mastery are they being collected? My information is that over the great part of Southern Ireland there is complete tranquility. No one is paying any taxes at all, and that is the reason. [An HON. MEMBER: Why do not you go?"] I wish I had time to visit that beautiful country.

The CHAIRMAN: The question before the Committee is whether the word "Northern" shall be, inserted, and I see symptoms of a rather wide diversion.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am sorry, but I was led astray by a remark of my hon. Friend opposite. No taxes of any sort are being paid over a large part of Southern Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman's information in that respect is not quite so good as my own.

Sir R. HORNE: Does the hon. and gallant Member seriously say that no taxes are being collected in Southern Ireland?

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I said nothing of the sort. I said that over large areas of Southern Ireland no taxes are being paid. That is a fact, and the right hon. Gentleman ought to know it. I dare say that it is only temporary. I hope it is, because I want to see things settling down there, and I suppose that one of the inevitable results of civilisation is taxation. Article 1 of the Irish Free State Agreement reads as follows:
Ireland shall have the same constitutional statue in the community of Nations known as the British Empire as the Dominion of Canada.
The Constitution of Ireland is a very fine document but it does not lay down very clearly what fiscal autonomy is claimed. There is no doubt that the most moderate of Unionist. Dominion Home Rulers, as they call themselves in Ireland, claim fiscal autonomy as the very minimum that they will accept. It is perfectly true that legally the right hon. Gentleman is entitled to collect certain moneys from Southern Ireland or to have them collected on his behalf and paid over to the British Government but it would be much better if we left Southern Ireland out of this Finance Bill altogether and made an arrangement with the Provisional Government to levy their duties on the same scale, as suited them best, in agreement with us. It is just because there is a transitional stage in Ireland to-day that I really think it would have been very much better to have adopted that course, and the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman only still further confirms me in that view. It would give support to the people in Ireland who say that the agreement is a real thing and gives great powers. If we leave Southern Ireland out of this Bill, it will, to use a hackneyed phrase, be a gesture, and a very valuable one. Seriously, does the right hon. Gentleman think that if the
whole of this agreement breaks down he is going to get much money by Excise in Southern Ireland? He knows perfectly well that he is not. If the agreement succeeds, altogether different arrangements will be made, and even then the right hon. Gentleman will not get his money.

Sir R. HORNE: May I interrupt the hon. and gallant Member? He is misinterpreting the whole position. This is not for our benefit; it is for the benefit of Southern Ireland. It is in order that they may be able to collect their duties upon tea. If we do not give them this power, they will not be able to collect those duties, and the Parliament of Southern Ireland, when it is constituted, will be left poorer to that extent. The duties will not 'be collected for the benefit of the British Government, but for the benefit of the Government of Southern Ireland.

Lord R. CECIL: And will be paid over to the Provisional Government?

Sir R. HORNE: Certainly.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: It is perfectly easy to understand that where they are levying taxes they are doing it for their own benefit, but I would say, let them do that under their own laws; do not let us do it for them. Why should we here be asked to facilitate them in that manner? The best way to make them function as a Government is to put the onus of functioning upon them.

Sir R. HORNE: That is wrong.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: No, it is not wrong; it is sound statesmanship, which I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman will never understand.

Sir R. HORNE: May I call the hon. and gallant Gentleman's attention to the fact that there is no Parliament in Ireland which can impose these duties at the present time? We must do it for them. They cannot do it for themselves.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: The Provisional Government is levying its own taxes in the parts where there is not complete anarchy. Where there is a Government of sorts, they are levying their own taxes. That is another matter upon which the right hon. Gentleman
should have been informed. But I dare say it is convenient to pass this Finance Bill with Southern Ireland included. It may suit the Provisional Government for the moment to have things made easy for them. They have our machinery in Ireland which they can use. But it would be much better statesmanship to make them do it for themselves. It will give them something else to think about, and the more they are constrained to raise money and to propitiate the different interests in Ireland, the sooner they will take the question of government seriously. This is only a. small Amendment, which is repeated right through the Order Paper, for the purpose, if possible, of cutting Southern Ireland right out of the Finance Act, and I am very sorry that the Government have looked upon it, not in the light of a happy suggestion of which they might have taken advantage, but merely from the coldly legal point of view, thinking with regard to Ireland in the terms of 1913 or 1912. I am sorry that the Government are not accepting it, and I hope that hon. Gentlemen who agree with it will support us in the Lobby.

Mr. LAMBERT: I should like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer one question. As I understand it, the Provisional Government have no power to impose taxation, but the Provisional Government will be followed by a Constitutional Government in Ireland, which will have that power. That Constitutional Government will, surely, be in existence before 31st March next year, and this taxation is being imposed on tea in Ireland until 31st March next year. Will that conflict with the powers of the Constitutional Government which will be set up in Ireland?

Sir R. HORNE: I do not think there will be any conflict at all. This is being done by arrangement with the Irish people themselves. Someone,.of course, must carry on until the new Government is properly constituted. When the new Government is properly constituted, the powers to impose taxes will then be vested in them, and it will be for them, if they choose, either to go on collecting taxation at the rates which we have imposed at the present time, or to alter that taxation for themselves. In the meantime, the
duties must be imposed by someone; otherwise there cannot be any revenue.

Mr. LAMBERT: Clause 1 of the Bill says that there shall be payable on tea imported into Great Britain and Ireland a certain duty, but, supposing that the Irish Constitutional Government do not agree, will the duty come to an end when the Constitutional Government is formed?

Sir R. HORNE: If I were asked to give a legal opinion upon that—which I should be only too glad to do under proper circumstances—I should say that, as soon as the Constitutional Government is set up in Ireland, the powers of the British Parliament will die off in so far as matters are concerned which are transferred to that new Parliament, and it would then be for the Constitutional Parliament either to continue or alter the arrangements. In the meantime, of course, the duties will be paid according to what we impose in this Parliament, and will be collected on behalf of the Irish Parliament in accordance with the Order in Council.

Lord R. CECIL: As I understand it, when the Constitution comes into effect, the power to impose taxation will be transferred to the Constitutional Government, and will, therefore, be taken out of the hands of this House altogether—the taxes imposed by us will cease to have effect, and, therefore, nothing will be paid until new taxation is imposed by the new Government. For the time being there will be an interregnum. I do not know whether that is so, but that is my point.

Sir R. HORNE: That is a matter which is provided for in the Draft Constitution. It provides for the continuance of the duties imposed by the British Parliament until the Irish Parliament alters them.

Mr. RONALD McNEILL: The speech made just now by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) was a very remarkable accomplishment. He did what I have never heard him do before—he made a speech in which he made a remark about Ireland which was approximately accurate. It is quite true, as he said, that at the present time in many parts of Ireland taxes are being collected and
paid, not under any compulsion from the right hon. Gentleman here, but by the collecting authorities in Ireland. I must say that I think the proposers of this Amendment have very usefully put their finger upon a point which illustrates the absolutely farcial nature of the situation at the present time. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said—and, as far as I can make out, he said it without having his tongue in his cheek—that this proposal was for the benefit of Southern Ireland, and that but for it they would have no power to collect their taxation on tea. Does the right hon. Gentleman, or anyone else, really imagine that they are going to wait for any authorisation from him before they collect their taxation on tea Does he think they are going to collect 8d. or whatever it is under this Bill, because he says it shall be 8d.? Of course, if they find they can do with cheaper tea, they will not collect 8d. The right hon. Gentleman has no one there to collect it, and has no knowledge as to whether it is collected or not. He is dependent upon the charity of certain officials of the Free State, and upon any information with which they choose to cram him.
If they like to have a 2d. tax upon tea instead of 8d., they will have it. On the other hand, suppose that they want a 1s. tax upon tea for the purpose of some large scheme of social reform which they cannot carry out under their present taxation. Are they coming to this House or to the right hon. Gentleman to get authorisation for that? Not at all. They have very much more persuasive methods at work in the South of Ireland for exacting taxation than anything that is known to the right hon. Gentleman. The hon. Members who have put down this Amendment have done good service, because it brings out the farcical nature of the legislation upon which the right hon. Gentleman is engaged. I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull—I think it is the first time I have had that privilege—that it would be far better in the circumstances, and far more in accord with the real situation, to leave Southern Ireland out of account altogether. The Government have not the power to collect these taxes. Southern Ireland does not want their authority for collecting taxes, and will not pay the slightest attention to it if they do not want it. Would it not be better, as has
been suggested, to leave them out altogether, to let them collect 8d., 2d., 1s., or whatever it may be upon tea at the point of the pistol in the way they know best?

Major BARNES: The Chancellor of the Exchequer has cleared up the legal position, and I am much obliged to him for doing so, but there still remains the fact that according to Article 79 of the draft Constitution, on the 6th December, 1922, the Irish Parliament will have power to repeal this Measure. I should like to reinforce what has been said by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us that this is purely a matter of arrangement between this Government and the Provisional Government—that the Provisional Government have agreed to this course and are willing to follow it. The Constitution gives a period of one year from the date of the Treaty within which the Irish Free State Parliament is to be set up. During that interim period there is the Parliament which came into being under the Irish Free State Agreement Act, and that Parliament, is going to be put in the position of collecting taxes levied by the British Parliament.

Sir R. HORNE: Imposed by the British Parliament.

Major BARNES: Imposed by the British Parliament. I gather that that is a situation in which the Provisional Government. has concurred, and, if that is so, I suppose there is little more to be said; but would it not be possible, by a short Act, to give the existing Parliament, which will continue in operation until the setting up of the Irish Free State Constitutional Parliament, power to impose taxes, so that we might be clear of the whole business?

Mr. STEWART: May I ask what the position will be in the event of a ship bringing tea from India or elsewhere landing that tea at Waterford or Cork, where the Customs are not working? Would the tea be landed without any duty being collected?

Sir R. HORNE: If the hon. Member assumes that there is no Custom House at Waterford or Cork, that is not according to my information. There are still Customs officials in Ireland collecting
Customs duties on behalf of the existing Irish Government. The Imperial Customs are still working in Southern Ireland. I would not say that there is the whole of the official staff, but there is an official staff now working under the control of representatives of the Provisional Government.

Mr. ESMOND HARMSWORTH: Is there anything to prevent tea being landed in Southern Ireland without payment of duty, and being reshipped from there to this country, so evading Customs duty entirely?

Sir R. HORNE: It would be very disadvantageous to the Irish Parliament if they allowed any tea to escape duty which is landed upon their shores. After all, they are dependent upon their revenue in order to carry on their government, and, therefore, I imagine they would not allow that to happen. The insertion of this Amendment would give rise to a very difficult position.

Mr. HARMSWORTH: Suppose that our taxation on tea this year is 8d., and that in Ireland there is a campaign, such as there has been in this country, for the reduction of the duty; and supposing that that campaign were successful, and the duty were reduced to 4d.; would it not be much more advantageous that the tea which is now being landed in Great Britain should be landed in Southern Ireland, where there would be a duty of 4d., and then reshipped across to this country—there being, as I understand, no duty as between this country and Southern Ireland?

Sir R. HORNE: I do not think that the hon. Member has read the Articles of the Treaty. I hope that we are not going to be involved, on each Amendment that is proposed, in a discussion of the terms of the Treaty. All these matters are provided for.

Amendment negatived.

The CHAIRMAN: With regard to the next Amendment, if it stood by itself it would be out of order, because it would increase the charge, but following what took place last year I will call it if the hon. Member who moves it will undertake that in the event of his being successful in his Motion he will move to reduce the whole duty on tea to that which Colonial tea now pays; otherwise it wilt not be in order.

Major MACKENZIE WOOD: I am glad to give that undertaking. I beg to move to leave out the words
subject to the provisions of Section eight of the Finance Act, 1919 (which relates to Imperial preferential rates).
This raises the whole question of preferential duties which we have heard so much about during the last two years. On Clause 1 only the question of tea is concerned, but I understand it is desired that the whole question of Preference should be discussed on this.

The CHAIRMAN: I think it would be convenient to allow on this Amendment the whole question of Preference to be discussed. Of course it cannot be repeated on other Clauses.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Can we discuss on this Amendment a possible increase of the preference on British-grown sugar?

The CHAIRMAN: That would have to come as a new Clause.

Mr. GIDEON MURRAY: Will that rule out my Amendment on page 356, dealing with sugar?

The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid that will come out anyhow, because the hon. Member has put it down on a Clause dealing with Excise only, and his proposal is one which affects Customs. That will have to come as a new Clause.

Mr. MURRAY: Can I put it down as a new Clause now?

The CHAIRMAN: I never like to say before I see the terms of a Clause whether it will be in order or not, but it certainly is not in order where it now stands, because the Clause to which it is an Amendment deals with Excise Duty. But it would be in order to move an Amendment increasing the preference as a new Clause.

Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: Assuming that the whole question of reducing the duty on tea is discussed on this Amendment, I have placed an Amendment down repealing the tax on tea altogether. Will that be entirely out of order if the discussion on this Amendment covers the whole area?

The CHAIRMAN: The duty on tea may be amended to any extent in the way of reduction, but, however much it may be
reduced, the hon. Member can argue and vote against it on the Question that the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Major M. WOOD: I desire to put some of the arguments which we have against preferential duties being imposed at all. The great argument which was given for Imperial Preference was that it would help to bind the Empire together, and I am sure all those who opposed it felt that if. there was anything really in that argument it was the very strongest argument which could possibly be advanced in favour of preferential duties, because there is no one who would not adopt every artifice he possibly could to help to bind together the different portions of the Empire. But we believe it will not have that result at all. Take, for instance, tea. India is the great Dominion which is going to benefit, if there is any benefit in it, by this discrimination between Dominion and foreign tea. Can anyone say that the differentiation in the duty on tea has helped to bind India to the Mother Country during the last two years? Has the state of India been affected in any way by this, or have the feelings of India towards us been more cordial than they would have been had this differential duty not been imposed? I am certain no one could possibly suggest for a moment that that was so. All that India has done bearing on this question, so far as I know, has been to retaliate upon us by putting on protective duties against our cotton. That is all the thanks we have got for giving India a preference in regard to tea, and it is a good example as to what we.may expect to happen when we embark upon legislative proposals of this kind.
Another argument in favour of duties of this kind is that they will encourage trade with the Dominions as opposed to foreign countries, but there has been no marked effect, indeed, I should say no effect at all, on the trade figures of the last two years as the result of this much advertised legislative proposal, which was introduced for the first time in 1919. I am sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer will answer all our arguments in favour of Amendments to this Bill by saying he wants money and he cannot assent to Amendments which will diminish the amount he is to receive for public purposes. The sum involved in this Amendment is very small It is
practically inappreciable. So that there is no real argument in favour of the retention of the duties on that score. What we really fear is that if you retain the preferential duties on tea, coffee and the other articles, you are bound, if you are going to be logical, to extend them to all articles, and then in no time you will find yourself saddled with a full-blooded tariff; and really, in consenting to this system of preferential duties, we are really taking a very large step towards a complete system of Protection, and, indeed, those who were principally responsible for advocating this preferential system in the first place did it in the belief and hope that it would end in a complete system of Protection. The chief case, it seems to me, that we have against it is that you cannot stop where you are. You must either go back or go forward, and if you do not go back you will in no time be saddled with complete Protection. President Wilson, in his "Fourteen Points," laid it down that after the War the countries were going to make a real effort to break down all kinds of tariff barriers.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: What did the Americans do at Porto Rico?

Major M. WOOD: I have nothing to do with that just now. We assented to the Fourteen Points, which we all thought were based upon the belief that rivalry in trade in the nature of Customs barriers tended to produce rivalry in other way and lead to war. Recently, the same proposition has been laid down again, as I understand it, at Genoa, where a resolution was passed by the Powers, to which we assented, and which said we were going to do all in our power to prevent Customs barriers being put up. So long as we keep a system of preferential duties of this kind we are not carrying out that resolution in the spirit in which it was passed. The objection which I take to these preferential duties is that they have failed in their object. So long as they are there they are a great danger, and we ought to take the earliest opportunity of getting rid of them because the longer they are on the Statute Book the greater the number of vested interests which will grow under them and the more difficult it will be to get rid of them in the end.

Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: The point to which I want to direct attention is the very serious loss to the revenue, and cost to the Imperial Exchequer, which the introduction of this system has involved. It may startle the Committee to know that since the introduction of Imperial preference on tea in 1919 the revenue has suffered a direct loss which can hardly be computed at less than £10,000,000. The then Chancellor of the Exchequer said, "Show me how I can save £500,000," and that very year he took a course which cost the revenue £3,000,000. This goes against every tenet which has been held and every principle which has been declared by Tariff Reformers. We were told that tariffs would benefit and promote trade, increase the revenue, and generally strengthen and satisfy the commercial community. What has happened in this case? We had the tea trade of the world. The centre of the tea trade was in the City of London, and of that trade. 92 per cent. was Imperial grown tea and only 8 per cent. was grown in China. People who drink China tea do so not because it is a penny or two less or more. It is an esoteric taste which pleases some people, and there was no need ever to give a preference to our own growers, who already had 92 per cent. of the trade, in order to stimulate our own position in the tea industry of the world. We commanded the whole tea position of the world, and yet a preference is given upon tea, which is a reduction of the Tea Duty in effect, at which I rejoice, but my objection is to the gounds on which it is given. If the Chancellor said "This Government has decided to make a sacrifice of revenue in the interest of the poorer classes who, we believe, ought to get their tea cheaper, and I have taken this line in order somewhat to alleviate their burdens," I should rejoice, but in fact this money has not been of advantage to the consumer. It has been thrown away from the point of view of the Exchequer. It has made a big hole, a, direct conduit from our Customs to the Exchequer, through which has percolated and been wasted and dissipated, within three years of its introduction, a sum of approximately £10,000,000. Those who are in political opposition to the Chancellor of the Exchequer regard him as being the guardian of the public purse and as being as interested in anything we can suggest to him with reference to the revenue returns as in any sugges-
tion coming from any other part of the House. There is one thing this Government has never done, which I should like the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do. They have never attempted to make any return of the cost of this introduction of preference; the cost, generally, of the introduction of these tariff duties. They have, I believe, amounted to more millions than the country has any idea of. If you consider the proposed adoption of Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and if the House could be informed of the net amount of revenue received by the Exchequer, and compare it with the cost of the new officials—the scores, indeed, I may say, the hundreds of new officials in the last three or four years—and they had a balance sheet, the House would never again say that preference and protection in this country, as we practice it, is good business. You may say that it is good politics if you like, good for one party, the traditions of a party, but you cannot say that it is good business. There is nothing to show that it is good business. This is a time when the business affairs of the nation have to receive very serious attention, and here is a clear example of the immediate effect, the provable effect of the introduction of preference—the loss to the Exchequer of ten million pounds, which will probably increase. I have called attention to this matter before, and so long as it continues I shall raise the question. It is an abominable exploitation of a foolish fiscal notion, which has no justification or support whatever in any facts which the guardian of the public purse can bring before us. It is not good business, it was not meant to promote Imperial trade, it was not necessary for Imperial trade, and it has served no economic object, but has resulted in a very great loss to the Exchequer. Therefore I support the Amendment.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The arguments of the two previous speakers have been mutually destructive. The first speaker wanted more tariffs, and the last speaker apparently wants dearer tea.

Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: No.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: That is the logical meaning of the hon. Member's argument. Was not the whole of his argument designed for that purpose?

Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: I object to my hon. Friend saying that I want dearer tea. I said that I should be very glad for the Tea Duty to be reduced if it was done in the interests of the consumer, but that I object to the loss of revenue and to its being introduced for preferential reasons and not for the benefit of the consumer.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The whole argument of the hon. Member was that because of the reduced duty on Empire-grown tea, there is a loss of revenue, and that, therefore, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have to put up the duty on tea in order to get money, if he proposed to get rid of the preferential duty. The hon. Member says that we have lost £10,000,000, and he wants to see that £10,000,000 put on tea again. As an old Tariff Reformer, I have always supported Imperial Preference as a reform of our existing tariffs, which we have had on for years—tariffs imposed by Free Traders. I have always been in favour of reducing the tariff on tea, and giving preferential treatment to British Empire producers in exchange for the preference that they give us. Not only is this to our advantage, as I know full well from my Colonial experience, but it is to the advantage of our Colonial Possessions, as they well appreciate. So far from it being bad business, I believe we should have lost every single penny, or, at any rate, a great deal of trade with our Crown Colonies, if it had not been for Imperial Preference. If it were not for the preference which the British West Indian Colonies are giving us on goods sent from this country, as against American goods, we should not get into the British West Indian market at all. That preference is given to us as a quid pro quo for the preference we give to them. There has never been a better stroke of business for the British Empire as a whole than the introduction of Imperial Preference. I wish to extend this policy. I shall always continue to press for that.
The hon. Member who moved the Amendment mentioned the "Fourteen Points" advanced by President Wilson. What is the locus classicus for successful preferential trade? It is the. United States of America, with its immense tariff against British Colonial products, and its immense preference for Hawaii, Guam, the Phillipines, Cuba, Porto Rico, and the rest of the American
Empire. The hon. Member for White-chapel (Mr. Kiley) was very flattering at Question time about the Report from my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies. If he will read the figures of that Report., he will see the advantage to the American manufacturers as a result of the preferential tariff system between Porto Rico and the United States, and Cuba and the United States. The figures are the most striking example of the success of the preferential system. All countries have a tariff system. We have always had a tariff system. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Yes. We have always had duties on sugar, tea, coffee, and other articles coming into this country, and why should we not on those articles which come into this country subject to Customs Duty give a preference to the British producer as against the foreigner It. is absolutely good business. It is not merely a question of sentiment, though the question of sentiment does count for much. Wherever I have been, in Africa, in America, in Asia, nothing has been better received in the last three years, in my experience, than the adoption, at long last by this House, of the principle or Imperial Preference. Who is the one Colonial Secretary whose name is on the lips of everybody in our Crown Colonies It is Mr. Joseph Chamberlain, who introduced this system. That is a thing that they always remember. It is the one thing which they say that England has done for them at long last, by including, them in a preferential system. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not give way to the antediluvian, old-fashioned, rigid, obscurantist, doctrine preached from the benches opposite, but that he will stick to this policy. If ho wishes to reduce taxes on imported articles, I hope he will make the reduction not by a block reduction of the whole taxation but by a further increase of Imperial Preference.

Sir W. BARTON: I should not have intervened but for the virile speech to which we have just listened. My hon. Friend is capable of making a very much better speech than he has done to-day. I can remember him in his younger days as a young man of great promise, who seemed always to look at both sides of a case, and I foresaw him at some future date not only on the Treasury Bench but a possible Prime Minister. He has sadly
fallen away from grace. He has become a violent partisan who sees only one side of a subject, and sees it very badly. In looking at the question of preference, we have to look at it from the world point of view. The hon. Member spoke entirely of our Crown Colonies. What is the proportion of population of our Crown Colonies to the whole world, and what is the relation of the possible trade with our Crown Colonies and the possible trade with the whole world. With respect to the duty on tea, my hon. Friend the Member for Eye (Mr. Lyle-Samuel) has shown quite plainly that the vast bulk of the tea trade was in our own hands and came from India. When you introduce a preference on tea, what are the nations against whom you discriminate? They are China, Java and Sumatra. China has always treated British trade fairly. Never once in our long history has China discriminated against us in the slightest. What of Java? My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) has visited many of our Colonial possessions. I wish more hon. Members would visit the Island of Java. It is one of the richest countries in the world, with a population that is increasing more steadily than any other population, and from the point of view of trade is of greater advantage to us than all the Colonial possessions mentioned by my hon. Friend put together. When you are considering Imperial preference you must consider it from the point of view of a nation engaged in world trade. Here you ask us to agree to a preference in favour of India, which has no need of it, because we obtain the vast bulk of our tea from India, and to discriminate against a country that has never discriminated against us, and whose trade is of the utmost value to us. The hon. Member for Stafford derided the position of some of us on these Benches, and said that we want to maintain taxes on tea. Under the name of Imperial preference what you are doing is by a subterfuge to reduce the tax on tea to the home consumer. Why not do it in a straightforward way? I support the Amendment because I believe it to be an honest Amendment, directed to get rid of an absurd position.

5.0 P.M.

Mr. BIGLAND: The hon. Member for Central Aberdeen (Major M. Wood), under the ruling of the Chair, has been
permitted to raise the whole question of preference and I am glad that he has raised it, and that my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) spoke out as he did. The hon. Member for Central Aberdeen seems to forget very much. He wanted to know what good this preference does. I was present at a meeting of the Committee of the South African Sugar Growing Association a month ago, and it was reported that the Imperial preference given on sugar had had a most beneficial effect in South Africa, and that without the £4 per ton preferential duty on sugar it is very doubtful whether sugar growing in Natal could continue. There alone is a question of 50,000 tons of sugar, and we have only been going two years. When America gave Cuba a preferential duty on sugar grown in Cuba, the production of sugar in Cuba was 600,000 tons a year. The Americans gave a preference of 50 per cent., and year after year the production of sugar has grown from 600,000 tons to 4.000,000 tons. That is the finest instance we have, where the greatest consuming nation in the world gives a preference to the best producing country in the world, and the increase of trade as a result is enormous. If that principle which we have adopted—I am thankful to say after 20 years of work that we have adopted it—is continued I am one of those who would go so far as to say, "put a duty on wheat and make Colonial wheat free." It may be said that I am an advocate of taxation of food. I never have been. It is a monstrous fabrication to say that the Empire cannot grow all the food we want. It is a monstrous lie, told on the platforms of England, when men ay that if yon put on such a duty you are going to add to the price of food for the poor. It is not. true. If this preferential tariff were put on wheat it would increase the production of wheat in our Empire by at least 200 per cent. and we should have 50 per cent. more wheat grown in the Empire than the amount which the British people eat If you develop Western Australia—and it may be developed in the next 15 years—you would have wheat grown there in abundance.
To-day the production of wheat within the Empire is greater than the consumption. Let us not be afraid of this subject,
but go forward and develop this policy. I am a business man, and am in competition with other business men. The United States are increasing the preferential duty which they are giving to their own people. Remember that the United States are 46 States, and not one country. They are saying to the people in North Dakota, "You grow linseed. We do not want to bring it in from Canada. We will give you a preference of 30 cents. a bushel." The effect is that the land on which that linseed is grown in North and South Dakota is increasing in value as against the Canadian land. It is having this effect, that when the United States farmer sells out and comes over into Canada, he is agitating to get under the Stars and Stripes because he knows that his land will go up if he comes under the preferential tariff of the United States. I know for a fact that every acre of land in British Columbia would go up to-day if they came under the Stars and Stripes.
We should increase our preferential duties within our own Empire. We are bound to do it. If we do not, a great strain will be put upon our people as to whether they stay within the Empire or proceed according to the modern idea of selecting the Government under which men will live if we give no advantages Let us trade absolutely straight An hon. Member was talking about President Wilson and the "Fourteen Points." Has he read in the papers during the last few days about the preference which the Americans are about to give to their own shipping as against ours? Are his eyes and ears shut to what is going on in the world to-day? Does he know that even France, our own Ally, has put up a tariff against England, since the War, of 300 per cent.? These things are blazoned upon the walls of our commercial exchanges, and we say that this Empire of ours is so great and vast that we can confidently go forward with the policy which has been initiated of giving one-sixth of the tariffs collected in this country as a rebate upon that which is grown within our own Empire, and I would advocate the continuance and enlargement of that policy and widen the list of articles that are taxed in order that we may not put such enormous duties upon a few articles, but put a reasonable duty upon many other articles. I hope that there will be a Division on this Amendment and that
the strength of the Labour party and the Free Traders may be measured against those in favour of Imperial Preference and Protection.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: I gather from the speech of the hon. Member that he would be in favour of increasing the number of articles taxed on coming into this country in order that a preference might be given to the Colonies. In fact he would extend it to any foodstuffs coming into this country.

Mr. BIGLAND: I would.

The CHAIRMAN: Perhaps I ought to have stopped the hen. Member who has just spoken, but I think that we must confine this discussion to the present duties.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: Preference in any case involves putting extra taxes upon the people of this country. One of the objections which we have to preference is that it involves putting taxes on food. It has been explained at great length to the Committee that almost the only way in which we could retain the loyalty of the Colonies and their desire to remain in the Empire was by giving a preference. The hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. Bigland) referred particularly to Canada as an illustration. I hope that he will bear his argument in mind a week hence when we come to debate whether we shall be allowed to import Canadian cattle into this country without obstructing that importation in the interests of home producers. It seems to me that if we rely on preference tariffs to cement the Empire we are entering on the decay of the Empire. The Empire has been built up on Free Trade. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] When it comes to a cry of saving the Empire by putting taxes on people in this country in order to give higher profits to producers in the rest of the Empire, I think that we must he in a very bad way. The fact is we know in the Labour party that preference brings in the long run taxes on food. Even so far as it exists at the present time preference means that people in this country pay more for their food, and that that payment goes not into the pockets of the Exchequer, but into the pockets of the producers elsewhere in the Empire. We are prepared to do that to a certain extent if it be necessary, but we are not prepared to add to the charge on the
people of this country, and if there is a Division on this question the Labour party will certainly go into the Lobby against giving a preference which attempts to bind the Empire together by putting -higher taxes on the people of this country.

Sir R. HORNE: Even the ingenuity of my hon. Friends has not succeeded in producing, I shall not say a single new argument in the discussion of this topic, but even a single new illustration of the old arguments. We have heard of the 14 points before, but they were startling in their application to the present subject. It seems to me that the discussion has gone clean away from the particular topic with which we are dealing. The hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has dealt with this matter as if it were a question at this moment of imposing tariffs. The whole policy of His Majesty's Government in this matter is the reduction of a duty that has been in existence in this country for a very long period of time. So far from suggesting the imposition of new tariffs the proposal is to reduce the duties which are at present in existence. I gather that opposition is offered to this proposal by the very people who, when we come to discuss the next Amendment, will be suggesting that we should get rid of duties on tea altogether. They are in this somewhat ridiculous position, that in order to maintain an outworn creed they have got to maintain an argument which is in antagonism with every other point of view which they hold at the present time. That is really carrying a shibboleth to the widest of all possible extremes.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: What is the outworn creed?

Sir R. HORNE: The hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme based his argument on the theory that we are going to make articles of consumption dearer to people of this country. The effect of preference has been the very opposite. The original reduction by preference of the Tea, Duty from 1s. to 10d. meant a decrease in the demand on the pockets of the people of this country, and a reduction immediately took place in the price of tea. The reason is obvious. Ninety per cent. of the whole of the tea which came into this country
came from our own Dominions and you had the market flooded with tea which was made cheaper by the reduction in the duty, and the reduction was for the benefit of the people of this country. What is the ground for saying that this preference makes the cost of living dearer? I am afraid that my hon. and gallant Friend was very hard put when he had to found himself upon so fallacious an argument. I would like to go further. It is not merely that we have brought about cheapness in certain commodities which are a most vital necessity to the people of this country, but we have increased the trade of our Dominions with this country. Do hon. Members say that the increased amount which we take from our Dominions and Crown Colonies is not at all a benefit, and will they say that they would rather trade with the outside world than with our Dominions? Do they begin to be aware that the markets on which we most rely throughout the world to-day are our Dominions and Colonies?
It is based not merely upon sentiment, but it is based upon very material advantages given to us by our Colonial brethren. The hon. Member who introduced this Amendment suggested that the preference granted by our Dominions was of very little use. I would ask him whether he is prepared to propose to the business men of this country, at a time when we are depressed by a large amount of unemployment, that we should ask our Dominions not to give us These preferences? What answer would they get from the masses of the workpeople of this country, whose employment depends on getting sufficient markets to which to send their products? The advantages of these preferences in our Dominions is notorious, and the way in which the United States to-day are building up an ever-increasing trade upon the basis of preference to their own people has become a matter of very serious menace to our own industries. But there is a further question, leaving out the purely material side of this matter. Will anybody say that taking off this preference, as far as it was adopted in 1919, would not give a shock to the opinion of our brothers across the seas which would shake, to some extent, the very fabric of your Empire? Sentiment is a
very excellent and very valuable thing when it is based upon mutual good will. What would have been the condition of this country to-day if our great Dominions had not stood with us in every time of trial through which we had to pass? Are you going to strengthen these ties of sentiment by rejecting the appeal which they make to you and denying them the preference for which they ask? There could be no more dangerous course that that for this Empire to take. I hope, after all the lessons and experiences we have had during the past few years, we shall be able to reject the Amendment.

Colonel P. WILLIAMS: I have listened with some interest to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He will remember an occasion in the Committee Room upstairs, when it was proposed that the Dyes Bill should give an exemption to dyes made within the Empire. My right hon. Friend opposed that Amendment and voted against it. In fact, all the higher apostles of Tariff Reform in that Committee, one after the other, voted against it.

Sir R. HORNE: Where are the dyes produced elsewhere?

Mr. KILEY: Switzerland.

Colonel P. WILLIAMS: My right hon. Friend thought better afterwards. He was encouraged by his friends, who had for years advocated the adoption of Imperial Preference, and eventually he inserted a Clause in his Bill to provide for the Imperial Preference which he had voted against in Committee. Coming to the question of the Tea Duty, it would he interesting if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would tell us exactly what effect the few years of preference have had upon the duty. We know that in 1919, 90 per cent. of the tea imported into this country was Empire grown tea, and only 10 per cent. was foreign grown tea. Since then, for three years, we have had a preferential duty in favour of the Colonies. Therefore, it must follow that, if that preferential duty is any good, the percentage of tea now imported from the Colonies must be considerably in excess of the 90 per cent. which came in before preference was instituted. If not, then the whole policy of this preferential duty has failed. We are entitled to know from
the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the proportions are to-day of colonial tea and foreign tea. We think that this example of colonial preference on tea has failed to achieve the object in view. If that be so, had we not better apply the £10,000,000 to a reduction of the duty on the cheaper kinds of tea, in order that the very poor may have their tea as cheap and as good as possible?

Mr. G. MURRAY: I have listened to the discussion with considerable interest, because it occurred to me during the speeches from the Opposition Benches that hon. Members who spoke for the Independent Liberal party and for the Labour party are voicing a decision, to which they have apparently come, to reverse the policy of Imperial Preference. I wonder whether, when they get into power, either as Independent Liberals or as the Labour party, or as the two combined, they will put upon the Statute Book a Measure repealing Imperal Preference. I observe that there is no reply, because they know perfectly well that if they were to do so they world create, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has stated, feelings of the greatest unrest and dissatisfaction throughout the Empire. Except in the matter of tea, they have based the whole of their arguments against Imperial Preference on the issue of sentiment. Why did this Government, containing a large number of Members who have professed Free Trade all their lives, actually pass this Measure of Imperial Preference? It was based very largely upon the Report of Lord Balfour's Committee on commercial and industrial policy after the War, which was published in the year 1918–19, Lord Balfour was a convinced Free Trader; in fact, he sacrificed the whole of his political career for that object. There were many other prominent and distinguished members of that Committee who were likewise Free Traders, and yet, after examining the whole of the conditions that existed towards the end of the War and the conditions that were likely to exist after the War, they came to the deliberate conclusion that Imperial Preference was necessary in order to maintain the Empire upon a. satisfactory basis.
The hon. Member who proposed the Amendment rather pooh-poohed the idea that Imperial Preference was of any
value, for he said that at the end of two years there had been no great change. Anyone acquainted with the matter, in this House or outside it, will say that it is not possible to test any operation of this nature on such a large scale except after a much longer period than two years. That is one of the reasons why, in the case of sugar preference, the planters in the West Indies, in Natal and Australia requested that Imperial Preference be put on a ten years' basis. I will go further. When Canada and the West Indies entered into an Imperial Preferential arrangement, they foresaw that no real effect could result from it unless it was put on a. ten years' basis. For that reason, at the very inception, they arranged the treaty upon a ten years' basis. The question of trade has been raised. I would like to refer to what the United States have accomplished in connection with their own dependencies. In a. very valuable Report which has just been published by the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, it is stated that the total value of imports into Porto Rico in 1899 was $9,800,000, of which the United States supplied $4,000,000 worth. The total exports from Porto Rico in 1899 were $10,000,000, and the total exports by Porto Rico in 1920 were $150,000,000. That is sugar. Why base the whole of the argument on the question of tea? There is not only tea, but sugar, coffee, cocoa, and all the other commodities on which preference has been given. I know that hon. Members base their argument on tea alone because it is the best case they can make, and to the other cases they dare not refer. I am glad to see that the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to stand fast on this subject. I hope that later on, when I shall move a further Amendment, he will be able to go still further and to extend the preference which is granted upon sugar to-day.

Mr. KILEY: One has listened with a good deal of respect to the energetic speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), supported as he has been by the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Bigland). They undoubtedly worked sentiment for all it was worth. I wish they had taken the trouble to give us some data and facts as to the result of the three or more years during which Preference has been in operation. That would have been of some assistance
to the Committee in coming to a decision. The Government have given away £10,000,000 sterling in the shape of revenue, and because of the remission of that vast amount we are entitled to ask what they have obtained in return. India has been referred to. It has been stated that 90 per cent. of the total imports of tea into this country came from India. There was very litle necessity to give preference to India in order to obtain those supplies. But what has been the result? We have given a preference, and in the first year of its full operation, that is 1920, we imported £15,000,000 worth of tea. As a result of our preference we imported next year £14,00,000. There is very little difference either in the value or in the weight for those years. I submit that, as far as the preference on tea is concerned, we have gained no advantage whatsoever. What did India do in return? India was a very large buyer of cotton goods. They increased the tariffs on those goods without increasing their own excise to any substantial extent. India penalised Lancashire because Lancashire agreed to a remission of the duty on the tea which we took from India.
Take another case. An hon. Member has spoken about the necessity of assisting the people of Natal to produce sugar. There is only one serious obstacle to our doing so. We have already considerable trouble in the West Indies, where the planters are complaining very bitterly because they are not able to send more sugar to us. We are not able to take the large volume of sugar which we took from them formerly. That is one of the consequences to be expected from this policy. One Dominion or Possession will be fighting against the other because they are not supplying their produce to this country. What has the South African Government given as a return for our preference on sugar. They had pressure brought to bear upon them by their own bootmakers, and in order to assist those bootmakers they prohibited the importation of boots from Northampton. That is one of the results which has been actually achieved instead of the results which we were led to believe would arise from this preference. We were told that all the Dominions would be our friends for life, and would give us all the favours we had a right to expect. I have already shown
that, as regards India, an excess duty on cotton was imposed, and in Natal they could not find a duty sufficiently high to put on certain goods from this country, and so they prohibited the import of those goods into South Africa altogether. I suggest the time has come when the Government should seriously consider the advantages which they have received from this concession and inquire into the actual results and consider whether it would not be better to revert to the policy which we found so successful over a long period of years, the policy of having an open door, and allowing all our Dominions to send in all the goods we are capable of taking to be considered on their merits. Let us make any Dominion which requires it a grant, if such be found necessary, but otherwise let us give them a free run with the knowledge that their goods will receive a preference here if they are equal to the goods of other countries.

Mr. WISE: The Chancellor of the Exchequer has replied to most of the points raised, but he did not confirm or deny the amount mentioned by the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Lyle-Samuel), who stated we had lost £10,000,000 sterling by this new tariff. I think if the hon. Member refers to the twelfth report of the Commissioners of His Majesty's Customs and Excise he will find that there is a gain of £10,000,000 in the net receipts from the Tea Duty. If he goes back to 1913 he will find the net receipts were £6,000,000, and in 1921 they were £16,000,000 or nearly £17,000.000. My hon. Friend the Member for Whitechapel (Mr. Kiley) referred to the amount in weight. I think if he goes hack to 1918, which was about the time tariff was put on—

Mr. KILEY: 1919.

Mr. WISE: —he will find the quantity retained for consumption was 321,000,000 lbs., and if he refers to 1921 the quantity is 394,000,000 lbs. Those figures show an increase, and I should like to know where hon. Members get the figures showing a loss of £10,000,000 on this tariff.

Sir GODFREY COLLINS: The Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke with great zest and seal in defending the proposals of His Majesty's Government. I think he spoke from a keen tariff point of view,
and he expressed to the Committee those arguments and illustrations Which were so noticeable on Unionist platforms before the War. When he comes in the morning to read his words that the deletion of this duty of 1¾d. on tea "would shake the fabric of the Empire," I think he will have cause to regret those strong words. He defended the proposal as being in the business interests of this country. I was hopeful that he would have given to the Committee some figures to show the re-export of tea during the last two or three years because in well-informed trade circles it is stated that the two duties on tea which are prevalent to-day have hindered and are hindering the blending trade in this country. It is stated in trade papers by those closely in touch with the trade that while before the War there was in this country a large trade in blending teas and teas were brought in here in British ships, and after being blended in British factories were shipped to other parts of the world, to-day, through the two duties, the high duty on China tea and on other teas, this trade has been seriously affected. The re-export of tea has been adversely affected by these duties, and no doubt by other causes as well. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer has accurate information from those in the tea trade, I was hopeful when he defended these proposals as being in the business interest of the country, he would have given the Committee some details on that point. The hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. Big-land) referred to Natal. Some two years ago I visited that country, and after making inquiries found that the best sugar-growing districts in Natal were being developed or had been developed. The imposition of these two duties means that you will penalise countries which can grow tea to the best advantage by giving an artificial protection to other countries.[HON. MEM-BERS: "Why?"] It is bound to have that effect, because you are penalising the countries which can grow tea.

Mr. WISE: What countries?

Sir G. COLLINS: Wherever tea may be grown. You are penalising tea growing in that land, and bringing it into cultivation in other lands through an artificial and economic advantage.

Mr. WISE: Our percentage has gone up 4 per cent.

Sir EDMUND BARTLEY-DENNISS: Tea from China has increased very considerably.

Sir G. COLLINS: My answer is, that the obvious effect must be to penalise a certain industry in certain countries and give an economic advantage to other countries in that respect. That will take time to operate, but the effect of these two duties will be, as I say, to place hardship on countries which can grow tea to the best advantage and, in the long run, place the burden on the consumers.

Sir W. LANE MITCHELL: The previous speaker is concerned about every other country except his own. He is troubled about any economic advantage that may be given by having a preferential tariff within the Empire, and about the position, in that respect, of other countries which are not within the Empire. If he did know anything about the tea trade and about the economic conditions of Europe, he would understand better the position with regard to the export of mixed tea. I have been in the Dominions which this question affects, and I know it is a tremendous advantage for them to be able to get the benefit which this tariff affords. I hope we are going to think of our own country and our own Empire before we think of the rest of the world.

Mr. N. MACLEAN: I take a view entirely different from that taken by members of the Independent Liberal party and also different from that of hon. Members who have spoken from the other side of the House. The remark of the Chancellor of the Exchequer about "a worn-out creed" applies with equal force to both sections of those who have been arguing along the lines we have heard this afternoon. I thought the position was very forcibly put by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he told the House that the Imperial Preference that was being given to Indian-grown tea meant a reduction in the price of tea to the consumer. That completely smashes the argument of the hon. Member who sits behind the Chancellor and is such a whole-hogger for Tariff Reform. If these duties had not increased the price to the consumer, how could their removal make that commodity cheaper? I leave the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer and his supporter to square the inconsistencies between them. Apart from any sentiment of binding the Colonies closer to this country I take it that the object of this preference and the idea that was put before the people of this country to induce them to accept the doctrine of Colonial Preference was that it was going to make more trade between the Colonies and this country. If there is going to be more trade between the Colonies or any other country and this country that naturally presupposes there is going to be more employment. We have had two years of so-called Colonial Preference, and during those two years unemployment in this country has gone up by leaps and bounds. The preference given to the Colonies has in no way mitigated that evil. It is from that point of view I look at the question, and not from the point of view of sentiment as regards the Colonies nor in relation to the question of bringing cheaper commodities to the people of this country. How is it going to affect employment in this country? In spite of the doctrine which you put before the people when you were advocating Imperial Preference, it has not brought. about that additional employment and, as far as that is concerned, your policy has been one of disastrous failure. This Amendment deals particularly with the question of tea. Hon. Members know where I stand in regard to that question. Later on, I hope to move an Amendment to repeal the Tea Duty altogether. I am not much concerned about any talk we may hear as to the revenue from tea or from any of the other commodities which have been mentioned in this Debate. There is plenty of wealth in this country from which to get revenue without taxing an article which is mainly paid for by the poorer classes. [Interruption.] I notice the hon. Member for Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) has again changed her place. She was interrupting the speakers from this side about Colonial Preference when they were speaking on Free Trade and, evidently, having no sympathy with hon. Members on this side of the Committee,—

Viscountess ASTOR: Hear, hear!

Mr. MACLEAN: —she has now gone to the other side to sit behind the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer and to guarantee him that support which will probably make him stand fast in the attitude he has taken up. A reduction in the duty last year of 2d. upon Empire-grown tea meant a reduction in the price to the consumer in this country. I maintain that the price was too high at 10d. and I maintain that the price is still too high at 8d. The right hon. Gentleman's proposal merely means that the poor Consumer—

The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is going outside the scope of the Amendment.

Mr. MACLEAN: I bow to your ruling. This Debate, however, has covered a very wide field. We have gone away from the question of tea altogether and have been discussing what I may call complementary commodities. We have gone into sugar, and even wheat, and I thought I might be in order to stray along the same lines. However, I will confine my remarks to the question of Imperial Preference. We on these Benches, of the Labour party, do not look upon the question from the point of view of revenue or of placing a tax upon the consumer. We look upon it from the point of view of providing employment for the people of this country, and in spite of the fact that you have placed this preferential tax upon Empire-grown tea and given various preferences with regard to certain commodities to the Colonies, and in spite of the fact that you are endeavouring to assist the Colonies in every possible way by giving them preferences in various articles, you have not in any way reduced the volume of unemployment in this country. It is because I am utterly opposed to any question that is not calculated to improve the conditions of the people in this country that I am against the Government's attitude on this question. I am not supporting the Amendment because I agree with all the arguments of those who have spoken upon it, and I am certain that I could not support anything that has been said from the other side of the Committee, because the attitude taken up by bon. Members opposite is purely along the lines of how much revenue you are going to bring into this country and how much good you are doing to some parts of the Empire overseas.
Illustrations were given by various Members of what had been done by America to her outlying Colonies, where she had given a bounty, and one hon. Member told us what was likely to happen to British shipping after what had been printed in the papers the other week in regard to a subsidy on shipping. It simply means, so far as they are concerned, that it is assisting the ship-owners there, and I am convinced that while that may be part of the doctrine of the Tariff Reformers in this House, it is certainly not going to be the doctrine of the people outside this House, because they believe that the shipowner got far too much during the War, and is not giving anything like what he should give in taxation.

The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member must keep to the point.

Mr. MACLEAN: So far as we are concerned, we are against Tariff Reform in any shape, whether or not it be concealed, as it has been concealed, very carefully and skilfully, by the hon. Members on the other side, who have taken an active part in the government of the country under the so-called theory of Colonial Preference. It is not the thin end of the wedge of Tariff Reform; it has actually given us a bit of Tariff Reform, and I shall he interested to see how some of the hon. Members who call themselves Coalition Liberals are going to vote. Indeed, I have seen some of them this afternoon who have been sitting in this Chamber—a very few of them—during the Debate looking particularly unhappy at the speeches that have come from the other side, where they are sitting, opposing entirely all the doctrines they have advocated when they were fighting to obtain seats in this House. I am certain a number of them will go into the Lobby looking carefully around to see who is watching them go in. I know the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) does not in any way try to hide himself when he goes into the Lobby on Tariff Reform. We all know where he stands and what he advocates, and it is not to him that I refer, because he has never concealed himself as a Coalition Liberal, but has always come out and preached the true doctrine of his party, that Tariff Reform and nothing else will save this country. I am afraid the doctrine that has been preached, and
that has not all been accepted by a so-called Coalition Government, is in reality the Tariff Reform scheme of the old Joseph Chamberlain brigade. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am glad hon. Members admit it, and I hope some of the Coalition Liberals will realise where they are going this afternoon and will cast aside those hon. Members and the leader who has led them to destruction.
The whole policy of the Coalition Government is now manifested. They are out to place Tariff Reform in this country, and they are going to place it by degrees, operating this Colonial Preference which was put forward two years ago as the first instalment. They are going forward gradually, and I stand as a Free Trader, not because I believe that Free Trade only is going to mean the salvation of the people, but because I believe that under its operation we shall have a much better opportunity of developing those things within our own country and Empire that will enable the people of this country to get the trade for which they are looking at the moment; and because I am opposed, as a Free Trader, to any semblance of preference or Tariff Reform, I shall support the Independent Liberals if they press this Amendment to a division.

Mr. FOOT: This is the first occasion on which I have had an opportunity of hearing a Debate in this House on Free Trade versus Protection, which seems to me to have been the form that this Debate has taken. I had no surprise whatever in listening to the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore). He was perfectly entitled to speak of Free Trade as being an antediluvian scheme. He has been doing that for many years. I recall some of his earlier speeches, and I am glad to congratulate him on the fact that he found the same epithets available now as in the old struggles of eight or 10 years ago. Neither am I surprised that the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. Bigland) should have used the word "shibboleth," or was it the Chancellor of the Exchequer who spoke of an outworn creed and a shibboleth? And by his side there sat a Liberal Minister from whom, apparently, there came no protest, and upon those Benches there sat Liberal Members, who in the past on a. hundred platforms have denounced Colonial Pre-
ference, and who not only made no protest but will probably go in, as meekly as possible, following their leaders when the Division bell rings in the course of a few minutes. The hon. Member for Stafford is perfectly entitled to make his declaration, and I congratulate him upon it, but what makes the whole country sick is that those who have up to the last few years proclaimed a Free Trade policy should now, apparently for temporary purposes, turn their backs on the creed they have been avowing for years and years.
Reference was made by one of the speakers—I think it was the hon. Member for Stafford—to the Colonial Secretary, but, of course, his reference was not to the present Colonial Secretary. It gave me quite a shock at the moment, because, as far as the present Colonial Secretary is concerned, I remember that a complete answer to all the arguments used in this Debate today, are contained in the earlier speeches of the Colonial Secretary; and if my hon. Friend really wants a full answer to what he had to say, all he need do is to turn up the book written by the Colonial Secretary and entitled, I believe, "Liberalism and the Social Problem." May I say that while certain fears were expressed a few years ago by Free Traders, we needed only this Debate to show us that our fears were completely justified, and we have had justification in the speech made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer? It was formerly said on a hundred platforms that if we granted Colonial Preference we should not be free to alter it. Supposing that after 12 months', or two years', or five years' experience we wanted to reverse the experiment, we prophesied that we should not be able to go back on it, and we have had justification for that argument in the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-day. He tells us after two years that, if we dared to go back upon this small experiment made two years ago, it would give the whole Empire an extraordinary shock, that we should, as a matter of fact, shake the Empire to pieces if we went back upon a small scheme of Colonial Preference such as was established two years ago.
The argument that we made years ago, and make now, against this system of Colonial Preference is that it ties our
hands, that it deprives us of our proper freedom. When the hon. Member for East Birkenhead used the illustration just now as to the help that was given by a preference upon sugar, the question I would put to him is this: Are we to be free to wipe out the Sugar Duty? If we must maintain some part of it in order that we shall give Natal a preference, where has our freedom gone? Supposing later today, in the course of this Sitting, when the Amendment to wipe out the Tea Duty altogether is brought forward, that. Amendment was carried—and whether we agreed with it or not we should all, I think, approve the right of this House to govern entirely our own taxation—the mischief would be that we should wipe out at once the main part of our system of Colonial Preference, and the argument against Colonial Preference as established in this country now is that it deprives this House of its proper freedom and of the power of deciding what taxation there shall be upon one commodity or another.
What surprises me is that under our system of Colonial Preference you are not helping all of your Empire, that there are great parts of your Empire that are receiving no advantage at all, that the advantage is distributed disproportionately and haphazardly within the Empire. It is a perfectly feasible proposal that you should make some financial sacrifice by the Mother Country in order to help the Colonies—it may be in accordance with the help they give to us—but your Colonial Preference as it is established to-day is haphazard. It helps one country substantially, and leaves the other entirely in the cold, and we object altogether to the very degrading argument that the sentiment of this Empire depends, as it has been alleged to-day, upon some two-penny-halfpenny advantage that can be given in the way of a tariff. The Chancellor of the Exchequer hinted that that was so, and the hon. Member for East Birkenhead actually pictured our Colonies measuring up in their minds what financial advantage was to be had. Whatever he may say in this Committee on that point, he would find that in Canada and Australia they would repudiate with indignation any suggestion that their association in the Commonwealth of Nations is dependent on an extra half per cent. on their tariff. Those who advocate this policy have always held the little opinion
of our Empire. They have talked a great deal. There was a wise man more than 100 years ago who said that a. great Empire and little minds went ill together, and in every essential this Empire has not secured its greatness by small tariffs. It has not secured its greatness by measuring up here and there, in a huckstering way, the small financial advantage that can be given to one Colony or another, and when, a short time ago, this country was in supreme danger, the Colonies did not reckon what financial advantage they had received. All they had to give was all that they had, and this small conception of the Empire, which really has been one of the main features of Tariff Reform in past controversies, may be agreeable to the minds of the hon. Members who sit opposite, but it has no relevance at all to the great statesmen who, from one generation to the other, have built up this Commonwealth of Nations, not so much upon gaining a financial advantage as in forming one free people for the declaration of free principles throughout the world.
It is because this Amendment depends not merely on financial advantage but upon great principles—not merely Liberal principles, but principles that are behind all the democracy of the world—that I hope this will go to a. Division, and that in that Division there may he a free expression of opinion, in which we shall invite the co-operation of those who, only a year or two ago, championed this very theory in so many places throughout the country.

6.0 P.M.

Major BARNES: The Chancellor of the Exchequer has chaffed us on this side with having nothing but old arguments. That is quite true. This is an old story, and an answer to him would be to say that old arguments are quite as good as hoary fallacies. But if there have been no new arguments on this side, I cannot remember having heard any new arguments from the Front Bench opposite. There were some from the back benches, but with those I will deal in a moment or two. Preference has been put before us by the: Chancellor of the Exchequer as a really wonderful thing. What is it going to do? By preference you reduce taxation. That is a delightful prospect. By preference you increase trade abroad, and by preference you bind the Empire
together. It sounds more like the Philosopher's Stone than a political programme. If a policy can do these three things—reduce taxation, increase trade abroad, and bind the Empire together—what other policy is required? Why do you not go on with it? The Chancellor has got a political policy which, if he only puts it into application, is going to do everything we want at the present time. What is troubling us? High taxation. Preference, says the-right hon. Gentleman, will bring that down. What is it we want. Trade abroad. Preference, he says, will give it to us. We want the best relations with the Colonies. That we can get by preference. Why is not this policy developed? Surely the logical course would he to develop it, and if you had logicians on the Front Bench you probably would get it. You have not got them. You have them on the back benches. My hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Bigland) realises the advantages of this policy. He says, "Go on with it; do not stop at taxing tea and sugar, but go on and tax wheat, and when you have taxed wheat, what a glorious result you will achieve' When you have taxed' wheat, you will increase land values in British Columbia." That is a fine programme for a party. I present it, to the Coalition—"Give preference, and increase land values in British Columbia."
Why does not the Chancellor develop his discovery? For a very good reason. The difficulty about preference is that you cannot give preference unless, first of all, you have a tariff. So that if you want to. develop the policy of preference, you must, develop the tariff. It is the Tariff. Reformer who can give you preference. Ho can, by putting taxes on all sorts of. commodities, offer all sorts of preferences., and that is what the logical Protectionist wants. That is what my hon. Friend' opposite wants. That is what the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) would like to see. Consistent and logical, he says, "Let us go on, and have more commodities taxed, and then we can give more preferences to our Colonies." He has just had the advantage, which we are all glad he has had, of a very delightful tour among our Colonies, and has seen and heard a good many things. About one thing, of which he has heard, he has told the House, and that is that in the Colonies the name of the late Mr.
Chamberlain is a very popular name on account of his policy. But let me remind the hon. Member for Stafford that, that policy was very decisively rejected in this country. The hon. Member for Stafford will admit that that policy was put before this country in a way such as, probably, it was never presented before, and never has been presented since, by the late Mr. Chamberlain, with all his great powers of oratory and argument, and the result was seen in the 1906 Election. I suggest that the reason the policy is so popular in the Colonies, and the reason it was rejected here, rest upon the same foundation. Both in the Colonies and at home people know what is best for them. Preference, undoubtedly, would be very advantageous to some of the Colonies, but not at all to the people of this country.
That is the Chancellor's difficulty. To develop his discovery, and to give us the benefits of preference, he has to bring in Tariff Reform, and the Chancellor will not bring in Tariff Reform. There are Tariff Reformers in this House and in the Chancellor's constituency of Hillhead, and I notice, when he went down to his constituency a little time ago, one thing he had to do was to damp down the ardour of the Tariff Reformers in Hillhead, and tell them that this was not the time to go on with this policy: it might have been all right before the War, but not now, he said. And so we get to this extraordinary conclusion. The Chancellor says that we have got to maintain the policy of preference, because if this Government were to reverse its policy, it would give the Empire a shock. Why, the Empire must be shaken to pieces by the reverses of policy of this Government. We Liberals and Free Traders oppose preference because, in our opinion, preference is the best fertiliser you can have for a tariff. Establish preference, and you establish the tariff upon which it is founded, and this must lead to an increase of taxation. So that this argument does bring us back to the old division, which will always remain—the division of opinion between those who believe in Protection and those who believe in Free Trade.
However much the right hon. Gentleman may uphold Protection on that Bench, when he gets to Genoa and all the turmoil there, he has to advocate,
not Protection or Preference, but Free Trade. A paper was issued, giving an account of a speech by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, who was conspicuous in this House for the support he gave to the Safeguarding of Industries Bill. What was the thing he endeavoured to do in Genoa more than anything else? It was to get the different nations of Europe to apply to each other the most-favoured-nation principle—to get them all to lower and lower their tariffs against each other. Then they come back to the House and defend Preference, which can only be got by raising tariffs generally in order that you may pull them down in particular instances. The Chancellor's policy is nothing more than that of a cheap draper, who charges a high price and offers a big discount, and you think you have got your goods cheaper. You put on a tax higher than need be, in order to be able to give a preference. If you have a flat rate for your tea duty, it will be lower.

Mr. A. HOPKINSON: It is such a tragic thing in this present House of Commons to be a Free Trader, and to hear the arguments in favour of one s own belief from the other side, that I feel I must interpose. The question before the Committee is this: Are we to reduce the duty on certain goods imported from abroad? I have always thought that a Free Trader was one who, like myself, believes that the prosperity of the country and the welfare of its industries depend very largely upon a constant flow of trade, and an abundance of cheap and useful commodities coming into the country. When the Chancellor proposes actually to reduce the duty on certain imports into this country, it seems to me a piece of real humbug for gentlemen calling themselves Free Traders to get up and begin repeating their old Free Trade speeches, which they have so often made on wagons in the streets of their own constituencies. If we reduce the duty on tea from certain parts of the British Empire, it will be bound to have an effect on all tea imported.

Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: Would not a Free Trader reduce it all round?

Mr. HOPKINSON: Hon. Gentlemen opposite speak as if the Tea Duty never existed under Free Trade Governments.
I do not myself see, and, apparently, Liberal Prime Ministers in the past did not see, why duties should not be imposed upon imports such as tea just as they are imposed on other luxuries, and that, if revenue is to be raised, it is desirable that the raising of that revenue, and the burden it imposes, should be distributed as widely as possible over the people of this country. But that is not the immediate point. The point here is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to reduce certain duties, and,

therefore, speaking as a convinced Free Trader, and one who does not even gain votes at elections by Free Trade, I am going to vote for these proposals, because they are in complete accord with Free Trade principles.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 262; Noes, 84.

Division No. 141.]
AYES
[6.12 p.m.


Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.
Dalziel, Sir D (Lambeth, Brixton)
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Davidson, J.C.C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Jephcott, A. R.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)
Jodrell, Neville Paul


Armstrong, Henry Bruce
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)


Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.
Dean, Commander P. T.
Kellaway, Pt. Hon. Fredk. George


Astor, Viscountess
Doyle, N. Grattan
Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)


Baird, Sir John Lawrence
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
King, Captain Henry Douglas


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Ednam, Viscount
Lane-Fox, G. R.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)
Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)


Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick)
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Evans, Ernest
Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)


Barlow, Sir Montague
Falcon. Captain Michael
Lindsay, William Arthur


Barnes Rt. Hon. G. (Gles., Gorbels)
Fell, Sir Arthur
Lloyd, George Butler


Barnett, Major Richard W.
FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)


Barrand, A. R.
Flannery, Sir James Fortescue
Lowe, Sir Francis William


Barrie, Sir Charles Cooper (Banff)
Ford, Patrick Johnston
Lowther, Major C. (Cumberland, N.)


Bartley-Denniss, Sir Edmund Robert
Foreman, Sir Henry
M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.


Beckett, Hon. Gervase
Forrest, Walter
Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachle)


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)


Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.
France, Gerald Ashburner
M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Macleod, J. Mackintosh


Bean, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)
Frece, Sir Waiter de
Macnaghten, Sir Malcolm


Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.


Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-
Ganzoni, Sir John
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)


Betterton, Henry B.
Gardner, Ernest
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.


Bigland, Alfred
Gee, Captain Robert
Magnus, Sir Philip


Birchall, J. Dearman
Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham
Mallaby-Deeley, Sir Harry


Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Gilbert, James Daniel
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)


Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)
Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John
Manville, Edward


Blake, Sir Francis Douglas
Glyn, Major Ralph
Marriott, John Arthur Ransome


Berwick, Major G. O.
Goff, Sir R. Park
Martin, A. B.


Bowles, Colonel H. F.
Gould, James C.
Middlebrook, Sir William


Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)
Mitchell, Sir William Lane


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)
Moison, Major John Elsdale


Brassey, H. L. C.
Greer, Sir Harry
Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz


Breese, Major Charles E.
Greig, Colonel Sir James William
Morden, Col, W. Grant


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Grenfell, Edward Charles
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.


Briggs, Harold
Gretton, Colonel John
Morrison, Hugh


Brown, Brig,-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)
Gritten, W. G. Howard
Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.


Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.
Gwynne, Rupert S.
Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Murchison, C. K.


Bull. Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Hall, Rr-Adml sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)
Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)


Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)
Hamilton, Major Sir C. G. C.
Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox)


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Murray, John (Leeds, West)


Carr, W. Theodore
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Neal, Arthur


Casey, T. W.
Harris, Sir Henry Percy
Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)


Cautley, Henry Strother
Haslam, Lewis
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Henderson, Lt.-Col. V. L. (Tradeston)
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Nield, Sir Herbert


Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry


Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.


Cheyne, Sir William Watson
Hills, Major John Waller
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John


Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill
Hinds, John
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William


Churchman, Sir Arthur
Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.
Pain, Brig.-Gen. Sir W. Hacket


Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
Hood, Sir Joseph
Parker, James


Clough, Sir Robert
Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.)
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry


Coats, Sir Stuart
Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J, A. (Midlothian)
Pearce, Sir William


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Hopkins, John W. W.
Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike


Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)


Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Horne, Sir R'. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Perring, William George


Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Howard, Major S. G.
Philipps, Gen. Sir I. (Southampton)


Conway, Sir W. Martin
Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)
Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)


Crane, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Hurst. Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Poison, Sir Thomas A.


Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


Pratt, John William
Simm, M. T.
White, Col. G. D. (Southport)


Raeburn, Sir William H.
Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)
Williams, C. (Tavistock)


Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.
Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander
Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.


Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn.)


Reid, D. D.
Starkey, Captain John Ralph
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Steel, Major S. Strang
Windsor, Viscount


Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Stewart, Gershom
Winfrey, Sir Richard


Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)
Sturrock, J. Leng
Waterton, Earl


Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Wise, Frederick


Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)
Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.
Wolmer, Viscount


Rodger, A. K.
Sutherland, Sir William
Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


Rothschild, Lionel de
Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Taylor, J.
Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


Rutherford, Colonel Sir J. (Darwen)
Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)
Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)
Woolcock, William James U.


Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Tickler, Thomas George
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Futney)
Townley, Maximilian G.
Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward


Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur
Tryon, Major George Clement
Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)


Sassoon. Sir Philip Albert Gustave D
Turton, Edmund Russborough
Younger, Sir George


Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Wallace, J.



Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Walters. Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Scott, Sir Samuel (St. Marylebone)
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)
Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.


Seddon, J. A.
Ward. William Dudley (Southampton)



Shaw, William T. (Forfar)
Waring, Major Walter



NOES.


Ammon, Charles George
Hallas, Eldred
Richardson. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)


Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry
Hayday, Arthur
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)


Banton, George
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Rose, Frank H.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hirst, G. H.
Royce, William Stapleton


Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
Hogge, James Myles
Sexton, James


Bell. James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)
Irving, Dan
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Briant, Frank
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Broad, Thomas Tucker
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Sitch, Charles H.


Bromfield, William
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Spoor, B. G.


Cairns, John
Kennedy, Thomas
Sutton, John Edward


Cape, Thomas
Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Swan, J. E.


Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)
Kiley, James Daniel
Thomas. Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Lawson, John James
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Lunn, William
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray
Tillett, Benjamin


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity)
Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)
Waterson, A. E.


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Mallalieu, Frederick William
Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.


Foot, Isaac
Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.)
Wignall, James


Galbraith, Samuel
Mills, John Edmund
Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)


Gillis, William
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)


Glanville, Harold James
Murray, Dr, D. (Inverness & Ross)
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Naylor, Thomas Ellis
Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Newbould, Alfred Ernest
Wintringham, Margaret


Grundy, T. W.
O'Connor, Thomas P.



Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)
Raffan, Peter Wilson
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Hail, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Rendall, Athelstan
Major McKenzie Wood and Mr.




Lyle-Samuel.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I beg to move, to leave out the word "eightpence" ["Tea……the lb., eightpence"], and to insert instead thereof the word "sixpence."
This Amendment is to reduce the duty on tea all round by 2d. in the pound. I am sure I can count upon the active support in the Debate and in the Lobby of hon. Members like the hon. Gentleman the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) and others who accuse us on this side of trying to put up the price of the workman's tea. Now is their opportunity to show their thought for the poorest classes of the community by going into the Lobby with my Friends and
myself. It will, I think, tie admitted that the Tea Tax already hits the very poorest classes of the community harder than any other. The old age pensioner and old folk generally, many of the poorly-paid workers in the poorly-paid and sweated industries rely upon tea as a stimulant, a comfort, almost a medicine, and nearly a food. The Government have met their bitterly hard case by reducing the amount of the tax from 1s. to the present figure of 8d. We think that it would be much fairer to take another 2d., and it is not at all certain that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will lose by so doing. I heard it said, and I think with some reason, that the Budget is too heavily inclined towards
the relief of the richer classes and that the poorer classes have not been sufficiently considered. There is a great deal of justification in that suggestion.
Income Tax payers have got something, and it means more to them in comparison than 2d. would mean to the consumer of tea. Is it altogether certain that if this extra 2d. were taken off by the Chancellor he would lose by it? Has he consulted his advisers on that point, and, if so, what is their answer? My advice on the matter from people who, I admit, are experts in the tea trade, and business people who have written to me on the subject, and who, I dare say, are perfectly reliable, think that the extra 2d. off would stimulate consumption to such an extent that the loss would be very little, if any. That may or may not be true; but I should like to know what the Treasury officials think of the matter. There is this point to be considered, too, that by reducing the tax on tea, even if the consumption does not come up to the purchasing power of the great mass of the wage earners who are the great tea drinkers, their purchasing capacity will be so much increased, that even if they do not spend extra money in tea, they will spend it in the stimulation of the general industry of the country by spending in the country. These people do not travel abroad. They do not purchase much from abroad. They spend their few shillings a week exclusively in the country and for the benefit of business in the country. Therefore, if there was some slight loss to the Exchequer, there would be a general gain to home industry. Even if there was some loss—I cannot enter largely into the question because I might be out of order—but there is no doubt about it that great savings can still be effected. Great extravagance can still be curtailed. Upon this I could give some cogent examples. Money can be saved without any loss at all to our position as an Empire, or the security and well-being of the country.
I rather expect support from distinguished Members of the House, and, therefore, I will not unduly prolong my remarks; but I do appeal to the Chancellor to consider that we are here trying to be reasonable. I am in favour of abolishing the tax on tea altogether. It could be done, and on many other things as well. We do not, however, propose a
revolution. We want twopence. Give us twopence and we will be satisfied. Give us twopence and we will bless the right hon. Gentleman. Give us twopence and the widow and the orphan and the poor people will bless him, and he will go down to posterity as the Chancellor of the Exchequer who looked after the poor of the country, thought of them, and did something to relieve, their heavy burden.

Mr. E. HARMSWORTH: I wish to support this Amendment, not because I have any particular sympathy with tea drinkers, but because, generally speaking, the whole taxation of the country is very much too heavy. Taxation is too heavy not only on the class in which the tea drinkers will mostly be affected, but on all classes and upon trade. We should like to sec, not only this tax, but all taxes reduced, but we must not forget the Chancellor has to pay his yearly bill. The right hon. Gentleman reduced the Income Tax by 1s., although many people tried to prove that it was not wise to reduce it by that amount, or even by 2d. I think there was a good deal to be said for the proposition that the less money you give the Chancellor of the Exchequer the less there will be for him to spend. Every class of the community has to bear a very heavy burden, and each should bear a proper share of that burden; but I am not at all sure that that class upon which the Tea Tax presses extremely heavily is not too heavily taxed at the present time. The wages of all classes have greatly decreased, especially, if I may say so, those of agricultural labourers.
In the case of an agricultural labourer, his wages are somewhere round about 30s. a week, and his taxes upon various commodities, such as beer, tea, and sugar, have not come down to the same extent as his wages have come down in comparison with the pre-War level. When the agricultural labourer indulges in tea and beer drinking, he is being charged a price which it is impossible for him to pay, and he is unable to purchase as much of those commodities as he did in pre-War days. The Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to consider this question of the tea, sugar, and beer duties. With regard to this particular tax, I am going to support this Amendment, not because I am against the tax on principle, but because we must reduce taxation right
through. I intend to vote for this proposal, not because I do not want the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have enough money to pay his bills, but because the less money he has the less he will spend.

Mr. AMMON: I desire to support this Amendment. I have already indicated that the Budget is in the main a rich man's budget. The average percentage of this tax bears much more heavily on the poor than upon the rich, because the tax is levied on all teas, quite regardless of their price. The person who purchases the lower priced tea has to pay a higher percentage than those who purchase the higher priced teas. That in itself is another instance of the manner in which the poor people have to bear the greater portion of the burden of taxation. This is due to the method of indirect taxation which has been adopted, where again and again the poor people are having imposed upon them a greater proportion of the burden. The Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to reduce the tax by about 33⅓ per cent. in regard to Empire-grown tea, but that is infinitesimal in the relief it is going to afford to the people, and it is doubtful whether they will feel any relief at all, because it is more likely that the reduction will go to the retailers.
We are asking that the reduction should be 50 per cent., which means something like a decrease of £2;750,000 or £3,000,000 in the amount of money realised by this tax, which is a mere bagatelle in the case of a tax which is causing great hardship amongst the people who have already suffered a great fall in wages and more especially having regard to the large number of people who are out of employment with, perhaps, an average income of less than 25s. per family. I know that to many people in this House 4d. per pound does not appear very much, but when you take this amount from people with an income of 15s. or 25s. a week, and when we remember that something similar to this is being applied in the case of the Sugar Tax, it does not need any argument to demonstrate how much this represents to the poor people. After all, I think we should look forward with some
confidence to receiving some support from hon. Members opposite, having regard to the fact that their present distinguished leader, the Prime Minister, has spoken very strongly and definitely with regard to this matter in times past. I believe there are other hon. Members opposite who have also spoken on the same lines, and many of them, I know, had this principle in their programme at the last election. I am glad to know that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) still stands where he did on this matter. Some time ago he said:
The sugar and tea duties, I agree, are grievous taxes which weigh heavily on the class of our population least able to bear the burden.
On this point the present Prime Minister was even more emphatic and picturesque in his language, for when he spoke on this subject he said:
I do not think that under these conditions they ought to continue a tax of that character as a permanent burden on the people of the country. It adds a burden to the poorer class of the people, because sugar is an essential part of their daily food, and if they cut it down very largely they diminish the comfort of the poorer classes of the community.
That is the case which we put when we appeal for a reduction of the Tea Duty. I believe if there is anything in the argument of increasing the revenue by increased consumption, you will be able to make up the difference in that way. Our appeal is that this duty, together with the duty on sugar more than any other imposition in the entire Budget brings home very forcibly the fact that this House is legislating for the rich and not for the poor Tea is becoming more and more a permanent article of the diet of working people, particularly women and children, and this tax is going to impose an additional burden on the great hardships which they are now feeling. With 2,000,000 people unemployed and receiving anything between 15s. and 25s. a week, this tax is going to be a tremendous burden upon them. We have to disabuse our minds, as far as the mere expression of the sum named is concerned, because, however it may appear to other people, to the very poor people who have to pay it this tax will mean a great deal more. There is considerable doubt as to whether the rebate the Chancellor of the Exchequer is giving will mean anything
at all to the consumer, and therefore will afford an opportunity for the poor people to feel the benefit if we pass this Amendment. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer might take his proposal back and give this advantage to the poor people, having regard to the daily worsening condition of the great mass of the working classes. I hope the majority of the Members of this House will take their courage in both hands and show that they are going to stand up for the needs of the people as against those who are in a more favoured position.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Leslie Scott): Perhaps the House will be inclined to treat me with a little indulgence in taking up this matter, because this is my first experience in this connection. This particular Amendment, like those which follow it on the Clauses dealing with cocoa and coffee, have in a sense to be taken together. As the Committee knows there has been for some years past a system of equivalent or correlation between those different beverages in order that coffee, tea and cocoa should be equally taxed. That was the principle advocated a good many years ago by Mr. McKenna, who in 1916, during the discussions on the Finance Bill of that year, said:
Our object, as I stated on introducing the Finance Bill, was to secure that we should get precisely the same charge upon the beverage of cocoa as we had already upon the beverage of tea. There had been for a very long time a complaint in this House from all quarters that cocoa and coffee were more lightly taxed than tea, with the result that those who drank cocoa and coffee were less taxed than the tea drinkers. We felt the force of that criticism, and we therefore resolved, in so far as we could, to invite the Committee to alter the taxation on coffee and cocoa in order to impose upon them precisely the same burden as was imposed upon tea. That meant that the cup of cocoa or the cup of coffee should have imposed upon it, having regard to the amount of coffee or cocoa contained in that cup, the same tax as the cup of tea.…I venture, therefore to propose to the Committee that these rates should now be accepted as a. final settlement of the question as between tea, coffee and cocoa, and I should hope that in all future impositions or alterations of the tax we should retain once and for all these relations between the rates of duty.
I think that is a very practical and fair proposal with a view to imposing taxation as an equal burden upon different classes of the community if they are to be
divided by classes according to the breakfast beverage that they like particularly. If those equivalents are to be maintained, a reduction of this duty on tea would necessarily involve a corresponding and proportionate reduction in the cost of coffee and cocoa. We are all in our capacity as Members of this House in raising the taxes of the year, forced by human nature to remember that we are, taxpayers, and we are all tempted to reduce duties and taxation when we can. Let us face the position. If this Amendment were accepted, with corresponding Amendments in regard to coffee and cocoa, even allowing for the increased consumption of those beverages which might result from the cheapening of their cost, it is anticipated by a very careful calculation that the total loss to the revenue on these proposals would amount to £3,000,000 in a full year. The, loss on tea alone, in addition to the loss of £4,800,000 already involved in the reduction of the duty from 1s. to 8d., would be £7,500,000 in a full year. The loss on the proposal therefore would be the difference between £4,800,000 and £7,500,000, that is, £2,700,000.
The question is, can we afford it? The hon. Member for Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) referred quite rightly to unemployment and the appalling figures which we have had to face for so many months past. I think that before the Budget was introduced this year there was one thing upon which the whole country was practically agreed. The business men of the country were vociferous in their demand, and I do not think the Labour party dissented from that view, that the one thing that would help trade to recover and enable them to help employers of labour to a position where they could employ more labour, would be a reduction in the Income Tax. I believe a large majority of the people of this country are convinced that this is one of the proposals which is most likely to assist the working classes of this country at a time when they are suffering from so much unemployment. But whatever the position may be, there is little doubt that this Budget was accepted as a whole by this House upon the footing that the shilling reduction in the Income Tax was to be effected. If that was to be the effect it necessarily carried with it the corollary that the House should not, attempt to make any substantial reduction on other duties
from the levels and rates contemplated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget statement.

Mr. AMMON: Some of us did not agree with that.

Sir L. SCOTT: Substantially the majority did, and that is the position. We cannot have our cake and eat it. Some of us, I agree, have very little cake. We have a certain level of expenditure which has to be met. We are making a very large reduction in one particular tax. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is also making a substantial reduction in the taxation on breakfast beverages. He has taken off one-third of the total duty in the case of tea. As a matter of simple economy the Exchequer cannot go any further than it has done, and I venture to submit to the Committee that that is absolutely a final answer. It has been suggested that these duties are illiberal and unreasonable. But they are duties which we have had in this country for a very great number of years, and if any individual hon. Member takes the view that some of them are not duties which in normal times he would like to see maintained, the answer is that we are not to-day living in normal times, but still have to meet circumstances exceptional in character which necessitate the maintenance of this very high revenue. If the question be raised as a comparative question of direct and indirect taxation, I think hon. Members will remember that the proportion between these two classes of taxation has been considerably altered in recent years in favour of those who pay indirect taxation. The proportion used to be something like half-and-half. To-day 37 per cent. of revenue is raised by indirect taxes and 63 per cent. by direct taxation. These are the broad reasons why the Government cannot accept this Amendment, and I venture to submit, having regard to the position that we have to raise a certain revenue, and that very large concessions have been made already, it would be well for the Committee to treat this and similar Amendments from that point of view.

Mr. ROGGE: We are very glad always to welcome the intervention of the Solicitor-General in debate, particularly when he is trying to tackle the difficult
question of finance, but I really cannot congratulate him on the answer he has pretended to make to the arguments used from this side of the Committee. Ho ranked the Tea Duty, as he was entitled to do, with the duties on cocoa and coffee. The Committee, no doubt, has observed that we have later on on the Paper a. couple of Amendments proposing a proportionate reduction in those particular duties. With regard to the suggestions he put forward why these deductions ought not to be made, the Solicitor-General used one of the strangest arguments I have ever heard. He said the Treasury desired to make the duties on tea, cocoa and coffee as nearly as possible the same because they were all beverages used at the breakfast table. Surely the Treasury does not try to correlate taxation on the basis of the article being a beverage. If he did, one would be tempted to ask why, in the name of common sense, does he not tax beer in this way?

Sir G. YOUNGER: It is taxed, and heavily.

Mr. HOGGE: I shall hope to receive the support of the hon. Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger) on this Amendment and of those whom he represents in this House, because they would come off very much better if the liquid refreshment, in which they are interested, were taxed on the same method as the Solicitor-General has suggested is the right method for dealing with tea, cocoa, and coffee. The second argument used by the Solicitor-General was that this would entail a loss of about £3,000,000. I tried to make an arithmetical calculation while the learned Gentleman was speaking, and I am not sure whether I caught his figures accurately, but I rather gathered that the loss which would be involved by this additional reduction of the duty on tea would cost £2,700,000, and a proportionate reduction of the duties on cocoa and coffee would bring the total loss up to £3,000,000. The Solicitor-General, however, asked: Can we afford it—can we afford to drop £2,700,000 in the duty on tea 1 Our reply is, that we can afford it if the Government do not waste their money on other expenditure. After all, the duty that is put upon tea brings money into the Exchequer, while the money which 'is expended in Mesopotamia and the Far East brings no return to the Exchequer.
We count that kind of expenditure as wasteful. Even the right hon. Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Bonar Law), speaking from below the Gangway on a recent occasion, ventured to express an opinion which, had it been expressed) from this side of the House, would have been received with a great deal of incredulity. The right hon. Gentleman actually said that it was possible to make even more economies on Naval expenditure than had been made by the Geddes Committee and by the Admiralty. Whenever anyone on this side of the House suggests that the Government might spend its money more wisely, there is a tendency to question our bonâ fides and to suggest that we are always levelling criticisms of this kind against the Government, but no Member of the Government, has ever answered the speech of the right hon. Member for Central Glasgow, who at one time was Leader of the House and was Chancellor of the Exchequer, and, therefore, knows what he is saying when he suggests that more economies could be made.
The Solicitor-General challenged us and asked if we can afford to lose £3,000,000 sterling by relieving taxation. Our answer, deliberate and persistent, is that we can do it if the Government will adopt a policy of not wasting the money of the taxpayer in the way in which they are wasting it now. The Solicitor-General wound up his argument with a. eulogy of the relief afforded by the Government to the Income Tax payer. He said that 1s. had been taken off the Income Tax, and that that was a final answer, not only to this Amendment but to all other Amendments on the Paper dealing with any commodity which finds its place on the breakfast table of the people of this country. He suggested it was better to take Is. off the Income Tax than 2d. or any other sum off any of these commodities. The Member for Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) dealt with one of the two articles in a way which would, I think, appeal to anyone who addressed his mind to this question of the relative importance of taxation so far as the Income Tax payer and the poorer classes of the community are concerned. My hon. Friend pointed out that the duty on tea of the poorest quality largely consumed by the working classes was exactly the same as that upon the better quality teas which were
consumed by the richer Income Tax paying classes of the community, and he further mentioned that the richer classes consumed very much less than the other members of the community, so that on the grounds of the burden on the poorer qualities of tea and the larger quantity of tea consumed by the poorer classes it was clear that the latter bore a larger share of the burden as compared with those who consume the more dearly priced tea and who are, of course, mainly Income Tax payers. That fact is, perhaps, a little wide of the discussion, but it is involved in the question of the relationship of direct to indirect taxation. I am not going to elaborate it here. All I wish to do is to say that the Solicitor-General put figures which we at once challenged. I, at any rate, was under the impression that the balance as between direct and indirect taxation swings very much more favourably to the side of the direct taxpayer than to the side of the indirect taxpayer. I have it in mind that the proportion was, roughly, 60 to 40, and perhaps someone who will speak later on behalf of the Government will give us the exact percentages on that point.
So much depends nowadays upon the cost of living with regard to the condition of the people of this country that it is wholly important that the cost of living to-day should be brought down as low as possible. I need not tell anyone on the Government Bench, because they know it quite as well as we do, that there is probably no more widely consumed beverage among the poor than tea. Indeed, I do not know what would happen if in the industrial districts throughout the country access to that beverage were denied to the people. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will remember, and my hon. Friends on these Benches who represent the trade unions will also remember, that wages rise and fall according to the cost of living, and, therefore, there might be some advantage to the Exchequer if this Tea Duty were reduced. The money might be got back in other ways. I renew this appeal which is made Session after Session on Finance Bill after Finance Bill, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman, bearing in mind the very considerable concessions he has made to the Income Tax payer, and the fact that this reduction would only cost £2,700,000 and that the money might be saved in
other ways, to favourably consider our proposal for some remission of this duty on tea.

7.0 P.M.

Dr. MURRAY: I should like to appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to accept this Amendment upon the ground that in doing so he will be making a concession to the Prime Minister, who has received a good many hard knocks lately from his Conservative colleagues in the Cabinet. The Prime Minister has had to swallow his Land Taxes and fabric gloves and other things, and therefore I appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make some concession to the opinion expressed by the Prime Minister on this question of the Tea Duty in the days when he was untrammelled by his present associates. Allusion has already been made to what the Prime Minister said on another occasion, but I have a better reference here which is very germane to the question before us to-day. No doubt the reason why the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not reply to this Amendment was that he did not like to go in the teeth of the declared opinion of the Prime Minister, for he has been in such close association with him in recent times that he would not care to do so. Here is what the Prime Minister said not so very long ago. It is a very long quotation, but a very good one, and it is a much better speech than I can make:
One thing I am sure will be accepted by every Member of this House, and that is, we ought, at any rate, to avoid taxes on the necessaries of life. I referred some time ago, in the course of a discussion in this House. to the Old Age Pension Officers' Reports. There was one thing in those Reports which struck me very forcibly, and that was they all reported that the poorer the people they had to deal with the more was the food confined to bread and tea, and of the price of the tea, which, of course, was of the poorest quality, half went to the tax-gatherer. That is always the worst of indirect taxation on the people. The poorer they are, the more heavily they are taxed. Tea and sugar are necessaries of life, and I think that the rich man who would wish to spare his own pocket at the expense of the bare pockets of the poor is a very shabby rich man indeed, and, therefore. I am sure that I carry with me the assent of even the classes upon wham I am putting very heavy burdens, that when we come to indirect taxes, at any rate, those two essentials of life ought to be exempt.
The two essentials to which the Prime Minister referred were tea and sugar.
[HON. MEMBERS: "Date!"] As a matter of fact I have not got the date. The Prime Minister is a Liberal every time, and I accept it when he says he is always consistent and that he never changes his opinion upon any essential point of view. Any hon. Gentleman who challenges that statement is not a friend of the Prime Minister. Whatever the date is, there are eternal truths in that statement of the Prime Minister unaffected by any passage of time. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to have sufficient respect for the Prime Minister to put this principle of his into practice now, when he is challenged. In his speech, the Solicitor-General very truly implied one thing, with which I agree, and that was that we cannot afford a substantial reduction in indirect taxation. I agree that the reduction in the Tea Duty is not a substantial reduction, and that is one of my objections to it. I do not think the loss to the revenue is worth while, because a reduction of 4d. in the lb. on tea will not affect its price very greatly and will not be much good to the consumer. If this Amendment is accepted it will give substantial relief, and that is a thing the Government ought to do. The Government must remember that not only have dividends gone down but the wages of the poorer people have fallen immensely. Some hon. Members who object to this Amendment seem to suggest that it is only by reducing the Income Tax that you can improve trade. If you reduce the price of the necessaries of life you increase the purchasing power of the great majority of the people of this country. A substantial reduction on tea or on any of the necessaries of life would certainly tend to improve trade by increasing the purchasing power of the working classes. My principal reason in rising was to appeal to the well-known respect which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has for the Prime Minister, and to ask him to put the principles of the Prime Minister into operation in his Budget and not to force the Prime Minister every time to go back on his word, as the Conservative element in the Cabinet has done at the present moment, and as some of the Conservative element outside the Cabinet did when they prevented him holding a General Election.

Mr. G. BARKER: I wish to support the Amendment, although I do not believe in a tax on tea at all. Tea is one of the necessaries of life that should escape all taxation. It will be admitted by every fair-minded person that the remission of taxtion in this Budget is very unfairly balanced. If the liberties of Debate allowed me to go through the Budget, I think I could very strongly substantiate the statement I have made. In remitting taxation the Chancellor of the Exchequer is the steward of the nation; he should show no class bias when he is drawing up his Budget, but should hold the scales of taxation evenly between all classes in the country. I do not think you could find in any Budget of modern times more glaring examples of unfairness than could be cited in this one. The wealthy citizen of the country—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is now discussing the Budget as a whole. That would be quite right on the Second Reading, but he must now confine his arguments to the Tea Duty.

Mr. BARKER: I wanted to show some reason why the Chancellor of the Exchequer should accept this Amendment. The strongest argument that I have is to be found in the inequitable manner in which the right hon. Gentleman has levied taxation in this Budget. If I am precluded from referring to these taxes, then I am restricted in the liberty of debate.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is not restricted from discussing the financial Clauses in the Budget, but when we are in Committee we take Amendments. There is a proper time for all arguments to be used, but when Amendments are moved his observations must be directed to those particular Amendments. It is not right for him to say that he would be precluded from making whatever statement he wants to make, but he must remember that there is a right time to make those statements. This is only the time for discussing the Tea Duty.

Mr. J. H. THOMAS: On a point of Order. Is not the hon. Member entitled to show that a particular Amendment that he is supporting would be more favourable than all the other Amendments on the Paper? Having regard to the fact that there are Amendments down
dealing with other phases of the Budget, is the hon. Member not entitled to point out that this particular Amendment, if accepted, would be more equitable, from his point of view, than any other? He can give that as an illustration.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: An illustration is one thing, and a general argument on the Finance Bill is another. I have pointed out that the hon. Member must confine his remarks to the Tea Duty. He can use illustrations, but he was not using illustrations; he was discussing the whole of the Finance Bill.

Mr. BARKER: I did not intend to make reflection on your conduct in the Chair, Sir Edwin; not the slightest. I feel the difficulty of the position. I wanted to give an illustration, taken from the Budget itself, to show that the rich escape taxation under this Budget to the amount of £52,000,000, whereas the remission on the Tea Duty, with coffee and cocoa thrown in, to which the Solicitor-General referred, only reduces the taxation by £5,400,000. Eighty per cent. of the population belong to the working classes; and in this Budget so far as it affects the working classes, the total amount of the reduction of taxation is £5,000,000. I say that this Budget bears a strong partisan bias on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he has studiously drawn it up on purpose to throw the greater bulk of taxation upon the working classes. [HON. MEMBERS; "No, no!"] There is not the slightest doubt about that. To compensate himself for this very small crumb that he has given to the working classes, he has reduced the grants for education by about £12,000,000, and the grants for the Ministry of Health by about £7,000,000. That goes to show the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he was drawing up his Budget, did it studiously on purpose to give the greatest measure of remission to the rich and the smallest measure to the working classes. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!" and "Withdraw!"]
If there be one article which should escape taxation it is tea, because, as has already been said, tea is consumed by the very poorest of the population. Even the paupers in the workhouse have tea; the poorest of our people, even the old age pensioners, have to buy a little tea, because it is the only luxury they get.
The unemployed, who number millions in this country to-day, will have to pay this tax upon tea. Considering the financial condition of the country and the hardship imposed upon the working classes, there is the strongest possible justification for the appeal by the Labour party for the reduction of this tax. Therefore I strongly support the Amendment. I do not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer could justify this tax on any platform in this country, and he should accept the Amendment.

Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: I shall be very brief in supporting this Amendment. In asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can see his way to make this reduction I shall base my appeal on other grounds than those selected by some of my hon. Friends. I do not think it is at all fair, or shows any regard to the figures of the Budget, to say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer framed his Budget studiously to remit taxation from the rich and place the burden upon the poor. I certainly do not share that view. The Prime Minister has been quoted as using the expression, "A very shabby rich man," and that is perfectly true. You can find plenty of so-called rich men who are very shabby, because of the tremendous burden of taxation that they are bearing. I do not support this Amendment on the ground that other people are bearing an undue share, but I do support it on the ground that it is a particularly hard tax upon the poor of this country. I do not know whether I am correct, but I think that the tax on tea before the War, certainly at one period, was as low as 2d. Then it rose to 3d. and 4d., and to-day it is 8d., or some 300 per cent. in excess of what it was at one period before the War. That is a very great burden, and it is imposed at a time when it is particularly oppressive. If some further sacrifice has yet to be made from some quarter or other, I do think it ought to be possible for us so to budget that the burden of taxation with reference to tea does not fall upon the poor more hardly than it would in proportion if the tax were only 6d.

Mr. T. GRIFFITHS: I should not have taken part in this Debate had it not been for the remarks of the learned Solicitor-General. He pointed out that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was reducing the Income Tax by 1s. in order to stimulate
employment. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer accepts this Amendment, and so reduces the price of tea, he will be stimulating employment far more effectively than by reducing the Income Tax by Is. I have some figures here which will help to show right hon. and hon. Members the amount that is expended by the working classes on tea and the other necessities of life out of the very small wages that are being earned to-day in the different industries of the country. Some time ago some statistics were published by the co-operative movement, showing the amount of tax paid on tea, sugar, and the other necessities of life. I am not now referring to people who deal with private traders, but to people who deal with the co-operative societies alone. They consumed £5,453,557 worth of tea in 1920, and the tax they had to pay upon that amounted to £1,779,820. In 1921 the value of the tea consumed was £4,804,643, and the tax upon it was £1,738,224. In replying to the Solicitor-General, I will take as an illustration, not the case of any rich man, but my own case. I received the paper on which to make out my Income Tax return for 1922, to be paid in 1923, on Saturday last when I got home, and I found that, with the tax at the rate laid down in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's new Budget, I am going to save next year £5 There are probably right hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House who are going to save, not £5 or hundreds of pounds, but thousands of pounds, as a result of this Budget; but for myself, saving that £5, I say frankly that I shall not spend a single penny more. Now, if we were to give this reduction to the working classes, and that £1,000,060 odd which I have just mentioned were put into the pockets of those low-paid men throughout the country, the wife of the worker would spend it every Saturday—on other necessities, clothes, shoes, and so on. Therefore, I would say to the Solicitor-General, if he wants to stimulate employment, let him give a greater purchasing power to the working classes, in order to start our cotton mills that are idle, our shoe factories that are idle, and to put to work our farm labourers and other workers in our different industries.
I have something to do with the working classes, and I can assure the Committee—and I should like to draw the
special attention of the hon. Baronet the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger) to this—that far more tea is drunk to-day than has ever been known in the history of this country, because people have not got the money to spend on what they call the other greater luxuries. Therefore, I say to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he wants to stimulate employment, let him reduce these taxes on tea, sugar and the other necessities of life, in order that the working classes may have greater purchasing power and in order that the wheels of industry in this country may be set going. Even taking the case of the Lord Chancellor, with his £10,000 a year, or the right hon. Gentleman himself with his £5,000, I do not believe that whatever they or I myself save will stimulate employment one bit. We shall not spend a bit more money. What we want to do is to reduce these taxes and give the people money that they will spend Saturday after Saturday, with the result of setting the wheels of industry in the country going, instead of relieving the rich.

Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSON: I take it that the crux of the whole question which the Committee has to decide is, as has been pointed out by the hon. Member who spoke last, whether this £3,000,000 can be better spent by the taxpayers as a whole or by the Government. I think the decision of business men will be that an extra £3,000,000 spent by the taxpayers as a whole on useful commodities would be infinitely more to the advantage of the country than if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had to spend that money. The Solicitor-General referred to the fact that this is one of a series of Amendments correlating these breakfast table or tea table duties, and I understand that it is desirable that we should have the main discussion on this Amendment, rather than have the same discussion over and over again on the subsequent Amendments. Therefore, as I have an Amendment later on the Paper, I support this Amendment on the broad principle that it is very much better that this money should be in the hands of small people to spend each week than that it should be wasted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Solicitor-General said that we have a certain level of expenditure. As has been stated already, we object to that level, and we say that this
£3,000,000 could be easily cut off. But even if the Chancellor of the Exchequer contends that he must have this £3,000,000, I submit that there has been a considerable change since his Budget was introduced, and that, if he must have this £3,000,000, he can, in view of that change, still well afford to remit this duty. I refer to the fall in the Bank Rate.
That will have a material effect on the amount of money which the Chancellor of the Exchequer will receive in payment of arrears of Excess Profits Duty. He is charging the equivalent of 7 per cent. to those who do not pay, and if those who owe that money can borrow at 4 per cent., it will pay them over and over again to pay it rather than pay the Chancellor of the Exchequer the 7 per cent. which he is going to charge. He will, therefore, instead of the £27,000,000 for which he has provided, get in a much larger proportion of that £291,000,000 of Excess Profits Duty which is in arrear, owing to the fall in the Bank Rate. Those who arc, substantial can borrow from their bankers and pay off the duty, rather than pay the 7 per cent. which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to charge them, and, as business men, they will, naturally, be very glad to do that and save. on their annual expenditure. From that source alone the right hon. Gentleman will get more than this £3,000.000, and can stimulate trade by allowing this money to be spent by the small housekeeper.
There were some cries of derision on the other side when it was suggested that this Budget was unfair in its incidence as between rich and poor, and, therefore, I venture to submit to the Committee some facts with regard to the incidence of the Tea Duty. I wonder if we all realise how exceedingly hardly it bears upon one class as compared with another, owing to the fact that it is a flat rate. The lady in Mayfair who pays 6s. or 8s. a pound for her tea only pays 8 per cent. in duty, whereas the poor widow in Whitechapel who pays 1s. 6d. a pound is paying no less than 44 per cent. of that in tax. Taking it in another way, on the income of the average household, a person getting 35s. a week has to pay 8d. in tax if he consumes a pound of tea, but if a man's income is £35 a week he will still, probably, not consume more than a pound of tea per week, and he pays 8d. also. In the one case it is 8d. on 35s.,
and in the other 8d. on £35. That shows how hardly and unfairly this particular tax, from its very nature as a flat rate, works in its incidence. The Solicitor-General referred to the fact that 1s. had been taken off the Income Tax, and said that the balance as between direct and indirect taxation must not be upset. Nevertheless, we are relieving indirect taxation to the extent of only £5,000,000, and direct taxation to the extent of £32,000,000. Taking the last three years, it will be found that the reductions made on indirect taxation amount to 18 per cent., whereas over the same period on direct taxation they are 35 per cent. Therefore, the reduction has been very much more in the case of direct taxation than in the case of indirect taxation. That is an argument for repairing the difference and increasing, by this extra £3,000,000, the relief which is given to those least able to bear the burden.

Mr. WATERSON: The fact of the derision which has already gone round the House because for the first time a direct representative of the consumers stands upon his feet does not speak very well for those who are not anxious to hear what a direct representative of the consumers has to say. We are asking a reduction of this duty in order that we may get back to something like normality. In 1914–15 the Tea Duty was increased from 5d. to 8d., and in the 1915–16 Budget it was further increased to is. I was rather astounded that the hon. Member (Dr. Murray) should have given a quotation from a speech of the Prime Minister, because it is well known to most leaders of thought that what is said by the Prime Minister to-day is repudiated in some other speech, and one feels 10th to quote him. Certain evidence has been sent to hon. Members which shows conclusively that the 4d. which was foreshadowed in the reduction of the Tea Duty is not in reality 4d. at all. The 4d. only applied to one-tenth of the tea which is consumed in this country. Nine-tenths of it is only to receive a reduction of 3⅓d. So after all the attempt of the right hon. Gentleman and his followers to put to the public the point of view that 4d. is the reduction on tea is entirely a fallacy. The Government has only the right to say that on
nine-tenths of the tea consumed the tax is reduced to 3⅓d. When this is put into operation by those engaged in the tea trade I want the right hon. Gentleman to appreciate the difficulty in which they are placed. The greater part of the tea sold to consumers is not sold by the 5 or 6 lb. tin but by the quarter-pound packet and the ounce packet. Our old age pensioners are constantly going to the little shop, not for a quarter-pound but for an ounce of tea. The old age pension is so low that they have not the wherewithal to get even a quarter-pound packet. I believe the right hon. Gentleman has sonic sympathy with the old age pensioner, and I ask him to see that the duty is reduced to the figure named in the Amendment in order that these people who have to buy tea with their halfpennies and pennies shall have some benefit from the reduction proposed by the Government.
The difficulty that the tea dealers have in arranging their details so that the consumer can get the benefit is made greater because the reduction is insufficient to give some benefit to those who buy small quantities. We believe if you could bring down the tax by another 2d. it would give these small consumers an opportunity to get the benefit which the right hon. Gentleman is anxious they should have. The right hon. Gentleman has said more than once that he has great sympathy with the unemployed. I met him a few days ago with a deputation when he said he was anxious to do all that was humanly possible to find work for the unemployed. If he has some sympathy with the unemployed, who are only receiving a few shillings a week, here is a golden opportunity to reduce the tax so that they may have a little more per week to get the necessities of life. Therefore I appeal to him, on behalf of the small consumers and the old-age pensioners, who are living on these commodities which are so heavily taxed, to see his way clear to grant us this reduction in order that these people may receive the benefit that he is anxious to give.

Question put, "That the word eight-pence ' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 225; Noes, 85.

Division No. 142.]
AYES.
[7.35 p.m.


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Gilbert, James Daniel
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John


Armitage, Robert
Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William


Armstrong, Henry Bruce
Glyn, Major Ralph
Pain, Brig.-Gen. Sir W. Hacket


Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.
Goff, Sir R. Park
Parker, James


Baird, Sir John Lawrence
Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)
Pearce, Sir William


Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)
Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)
Pease, Rt. Hon Herbert Pike


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Greig, Colonel Sir James William
Peel, Cot. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)


Barrand, A. R.
Grenlell, Edward Charles
Perring, William George


Bartley-Denniss, Sir Edmund Robert
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles


Beckett, Hon. Gervase
Hall, Lieut.-Cal. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Hamilton, Major Sir C. G. C.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton


Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Pratt, John William


Betterton, Henry B.
Haslam, Lewis
Prescott, Major Sir W. H.


Bigland, Alfred
Henderson, Lt.-Col. V. L. (Tradeston)
Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.


Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel


Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Reid, D. D.


Blair, Sir Reginald
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Richardson, Sir Alex, (Gravesend)


Blake, Sir Francis Douglas
Hinds, John
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Barwick, Major G. O.
Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-
Hood, Sir Joseph
Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)


Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Hole, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn'n,W.)
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)


Brassey, H. L. C.
Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Rodger, A. K.


Breese, Major Charles E.
Hopkins, John W. W.
Rothschild, Lionel de


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Rounded, Colonel R. F.


Briggs, Harold
Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)
Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund


Broad, Thomas Tucker
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.
Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Inskip, Thomas Walker H.
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur


Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.


Butcher, Sir John George
Jephcott, A. R.
Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Jodrell, Neville Paul
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Carr, W. Theodore
Johnson, Sir Stanley
Scott, Sir Samuel (St. Marylebone)


Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Seddon, J. A.


Casey, T. W.
Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George
Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)


Cautley, Henry Strother
Kidd, James
Shaw, William T. (Forfar)


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Simm, M. T.


Cheyne, Sir William Watson
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander


Churchman, Sir Arthur
Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)
Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)


Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Starkey, Captain John Ralph


Clough, Sir Robert
Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)
Steel, Major S. Strang


Coats, Sir Stuart
Lindsay, William Arthur
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Lloyd, George Butler
Sturrock, J. Leng


Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)
Sugden, W. H.


Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Lorden, John William
Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.


Colvin, Brim.-General Richard Beale
M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.
Sutherland, Sir William


Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachle)
Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)


Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)
McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)
Taylor, J.


Dean, Commander P. T.
Macleod, J. Mackintosh
Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)


Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry
Magnus, Sir Philip
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Doyle, N. Grattan
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Mallalieu, Frederick William
Tickler, Thomas George


Edgar, Clifford B.
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Townley, Maximilian G.


Edge, Captain Sir William
Manville, Edward
Tryon, Major George Clement


Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)
Marriott, John Arthur Ransoms
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Elveden, Viscount
Martin, A. E.
Wallace, J.


Evans, Ernest
Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.
Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)


Falcon, Captain Michael
Middlebrook, Sir William
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Fails, Major Sir Bertram Godfrey
Mitchell, Sir William Lane
Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.


fell, Sir Arthur
Molson, Major John Elsdale
Williams, C. (Tavistock)


Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.
Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz
Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn.)


FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Flannery, Sir James Fortescue
Morrison, Hugh
Windsor, Viscount


Ford, Patrick Johnston
Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.
Winfrey, Sir Richard


Foreman, Sir Henry
Murchison, C. K.
Winterton, Earl


Forestier-Walker, L.
Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)
Wise, Frederick


Forrest, Walter
Murray, John (Leeds, West)
Wolmer, Viscount


Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Neal, Arthur
Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


France, Gerald Ashburner
Newton, Sir Percy Wilson
Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Frece, Sir Walter de
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)



Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Ganzoni, Sir John
Nield, Sir Herbert
Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.


Gardner, Ernest
Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry



Gee, Captain Robert






NOES.


Adamson, At. Hon. William
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Bramsdon, Sir Thomas


Ammon, Charles George
Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
Briant, Frank


Banton, George
Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)
Bromfield, William




Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Cairns, John
Hirst, G. H.
Sitch, Charles H.


Cape, Thomas
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)


Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)
Hogge, James Myles
Spencer, George A.


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)
Holmes, J. Stanley
Spoor, B. G.


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Sutton, John Edward


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Swan, J. E.


Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)
Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Davies. Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Lawson, John James
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lunn, William
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Lyle-Samuel, Alexander
Tillett, Benjamin


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)
Waterson, A. E.


Foot, Isaac
Mills, John Edmund
Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.


Galbraith, Samuel
Mosley, Oswald
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Gillis, William
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)
Wignall, James


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Newbould, Alfred Ernest
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Gritten, W. G. Howard
Poison, Sir Thomas A.
Wintringham, Margaret


Grundy, T. W.
Rattan, Peter Wilson
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)
Rendall, Athelstan
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)



Hallas, Eldred
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Robertson, John
Colonel Penry Williams and Major


Hayday, Arthur
Reyce, William Stapleton
Barnes.


Hayward, Evan
Sexton, James

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. N. MACLEAN: I wish to oppose the Clause, in view of the Motion I shall make if I am successful in getting the House to agree to the rejection of the Clause. For a number of years the favourite cry throughout the country, which was somewhat lost during the period of the War, was a free breakfast table—that there should be no duty whatever upon the foodstuffs that come into the country. The Tea Duty was imposed originally upon what is a very vital article of food. Consequently, I want to bring the attention of the House back again to the proposition of the free breakfast table which was included in the Newcastle programme of the Liberal party. It is rather peculiar that ever since the Newcastle programme was propounded Chancellors of the Exchequer, whether Liberal or Conservative, have never proposed the elimination of the duties upon tea and other foods. Every Chancellor of the Exchequer has made the excuse that it, was necessary to have revenue from more sources, but rather than seek nut new sources of revenue, because they might cause trouble in the country from the classes upon whom the new taxes would fall, have continued to impose the Tea Duty, sometimes in increased amount and sometimes giving some slight remission.
If we take into consideration the various duties that are put upon the absolute table necessaries of the people
which are consumed practically at every meal by the working classes, we find that the total duty imposed last year upon the necessities of life of the common people of this country amounted roughly to 7s. 7d. in the £That is an intolerable burden, an intolerable income tax to place upon people whose money is scanty enough. I am leaving out of account beer, but am including tobacco, which is practically a necessity. I want the Committee to get down to rock-bottom facts in considering the old cry of the politician in his attempt to enlist the support of the workers by declaring for a free breakfast table. There are plenty of sources where the Chancellor of the Exchequer could go for revenue other than the food of the people. In urging the abolition of this tax it is not my duty to point out to the Chancellor where he can find fresh sources of revenue. There are sufficient brains in the Cabinet for that purpose He has a Prime Minister who in the past went about the country pointing out where hen roosts could be robbed, and where other things could be taken in order to relieve the people of this country and to devote the funds to the amelioration of social problems. Ho has a fertile imagination at the head of the Government for the purpose of discovering new sources of revenue. I have my own ideas how I would derive revenue to compensate for the loss that might take place in the total remission of the Tea Duty; but I am not here to supply the Government with ideas on that point, and if I did I am certain they would not accept them. The Chancellor of the Exchequer described
one of my proposals as confiscation, repudiation, etc., but ultimately he turned round and said, "It is only conversion, and when the money market is cheaper we will accept one of your ideas."
The Chancellor of the Exchequer may say that he is already reducing the tax upon tea by 4d., but he must admit that the tax is still too heavy. I can understand his difficulties. He must keep the finances of the country going, and he must tap the sources to hand; but I would remind him that the sources of revenue can dry up if the tax is too heavy, and at the present time, with small earning power, with 2,000,000 of people unemployed and a large number working short lime, the income in many working-class homes is small enough already to prevent people purchasing as large quantities of tea as in the past. The tax does not operate fairly and equally. It is a flat tax placed upon each lb. of tea, irrespective of price. If the tea, including tax, is 2s. 4d. per lb., the tax upon that cheap quality of tea is the same as the tax upon a lb. of tea at 4s. or 5s. The higher the price the smaller the proportion of tax on the actual value of the tea. The working classes can only afford the cheaper qualities of tea, and therefore bear a larger proportion of tax than do the wealthier people who buy the higher priced tea. The tax operates in a harsh direction upon the poorer section of the community, who consume tea at practically every meal, because they cannot go in for more lavish food. I appeal to those who have stood in the past for the principle of a free breakfast table, and who have fought elections upon it and have sometimes been defeated, to recognise that to-day, in the present hard times, the poorer people of this country are particularly in need of remission of taxation on tea. I hope that we shall be supported by Members who are conscientiously in favour of this proposition. Many hon. Members who will be whipped into another Lobby would walk freely with us and vote for the remission of taxation on tea if we had a free vote. If we remit this taxation it would be a very great boon for the poorer section of the community.

8.0 P.M.

Mr. M. JONES: I endorse the judgment that this is a Budget in favour of the rich and against the poor. I want
to controvert some of the statements made by the Solicitor-General, who was obsessed with the fact that the country is in need of revenue, that the financial condition of the country is in the highest degree deplorable, and because of this deplorable condition we must accept this particular proposal. In the main, I understood him to say that this proposal derived its justification by reason of the abnormal conditions through which we are passing. It is just because of the-abnormal conditions that I take objection to this Clause. This abnormality discloses itself in three ways. There is a section of the community which is less capable of bearing this infliction to-day than it was two years ago. There are 1,750,000 people unemployed. Some get no out-of-work benefit, while others get 15s. a week, with 5s. for the wife and 1s. for each child. In practically all. working-class homes tea. is a constant beverage at each meal, and, obviously, the incidence of this tax falls more heavily upon the working classes than upon other people. According to the Solicitor-General, unemployed people are expected to bear their fair share of taxation, but they are far less able to bear it than they were two years ago. Take the case of the people who are employed but are earning less than was the case a few months ago. In my part of the country, for instance, there are thousands of poor miners who are not able to look forward, I. at the end of a week, to earning even the modest income to which the hon. Member for Stafford, I think, referred in the case of agricultural labourers of this country, men who put in a hard day's work, by reason of the nature of their occupation, and there are large numbers of the working classes who have been compelled to face declining wages, including miners, engineers, and all the working classes. Therefore, I submit that this tax is unjust in its conditions, but on this particular occasion, on account of the abnormality of the time, it is even worse in its incidence than it would be in normal times.
I would draw attention to another abnormality which hon. Members opposite would perhaps be glad to have forgotten. The hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Swan) invited from the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day a return giving the incomes rising by
£5,000 a year of people who have from £5,000 a year up to £100,000 a year. In the year 1913 there were something like 14,000 people enjoying incomes of between £5,000 and £100,000 a year or more. The number had risen to 72,000. Before the Chancellor of the Exchequer invites us so glibly to consider this kind of taxation upon the poor of this country let him prove to us that he has exhausted the limit of taxation in regard to the people who are referred to in this return. When he has convinced us that he has taxed these people to the utmost limit, then we may be prepared to tax the necessities of the poor. Until he has done that we submit with confidence that the ordinary people of the country ought to be saved the necessity of bearing an unfair incidence of taxation upon the necessities of life.

Mr. MILLS: I support the Amendment on the simple ground that I feel that it is dishonest on the part of the Government to impose a tax of this sort upon poor people at the present time, while so much is being done by way of relief for those who pay Income Tax. We suggest that it is precisely because the cost of government should be borne according to ability to pay that the whole question of this and every other form of indirect taxation should be reviewed by the Government, and some consideration should be given to the claims made annually by that very small section known as His Majesty's Opposition. The Government and their supporters, I am sure, are wearied to death by the kind of arguments that are put up every year. Reiteration is painful even to those who have to utter it; but year by year we must record our opposition to these taxes, because there is no political economist in any of the universities from which these gentlemen graduated who could be found to justify the Tea Tax. It is a tax of expediency, and will continue so long as the great majority of our people take no interest in the kind of taxation which they have to bear. It is certain that if our newspapers existed for the purpose of passing on to the public the proportion of the cost of government which they bear, many of the most apathetic of our voters would be stung to revolt by the large proportion of the cost of government, in proportion to
their income, which they have to bear. Therefore, I wish that every Member of His Majesty's Opposition would put precisely but briefly before the Committee his utter detestation of this method by which money is raised from people who have no idea of the amount which they are contributing to the cost of government.

Mr. WATERSON: I would not have risen had not the Chancellor of the Exchequer left the Committee, as this looks as if we were not going to have any reply to this proposal from the Government. We have a case which demands a reply. Among the items of indirect taxation, that on tea is one of the most important. There is not an individual in the country who is not affected by it. It affects particularly the old age pensioner, who has tea practically at every meal, and the humblest classes of the community, and the money is levied from those who should be the first to be relieved of these indirect taxes. It was said one time by a Unionist Member in relation to this fact that he regarded the Tea Tax as an instrument for promoting the stewing of tea. I know from experience that there is some truth in this. When a man was engaged some years ago in the railway service, it was his privilege when working some trains to lodge in a given area, and he was paid his expenses for the night. It was customary for the landlady to provide the tea. We generally found that the pot was being stewed over and over again. Probably the Unionist Member who made that remark had something like that in his mind. We have been told by various medical authorities that the continued stewing of the pot of tea is against the health of the people. I have to take that opinion, because I do not know as an individual, but I do say that if we remove these taxes it would give these people a better opportunity to get full benefit from the tea instead of having to stew it over and over again. The Government is not yet so short of knowledge or intellectual genius as to be unable to make up the amount which would be lost by granting this Amendment. We have put forward this Amendment in sincerity and we ask the Government to give us an assurance that they are prepared to deal with the case with equal sincerity and honesty.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 195;Noes, 73.

Division No. 143.]
AYES.
[8.10 p.m.


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Gee, Captain Robert
Pearce, Sir William


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham
Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Armitage, Robert
Goff, Sir R. Park
Perring, William George


Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.
Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)
Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles


Atkey, A. R.
Gregory, Holman
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Baird, Sir John Lawrence
Greig, Colonel Sir James William
Poison, Sir Thomas A.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Gritten, W. G. Howard
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Pratt, John William


Barrand, A. R.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Preston, Sir W. R.


Bartley-Denniss, Sir Edmund Robert
Hamilton, Major Sir C. G. C.
Prescott, Major Sir W. H.


Beckett, Hon. Gervase
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Rae, Sir Henry N.


Ball, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel


Bellairs, Commander Carryon W.
Haslam, Lewis
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Bigland, Alfred
Henderson, Lt.-Col. V. L. (Tradeston)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)


Blair, Sir Reginald
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Rodger, A. K.


Barwick, Major G. O.
Hills, Major John Waller
Rothschild, Lionel de


Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-
Hinds, John
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Hood, Sir Joseph
Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)


Brassey, H. L. C.
Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Breese, Major Charles E.
Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Hopkins, John W. W.
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur


Briggs, Harold
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Scott, A M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)


Broad, Thomas Tucker
Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Seddon, J. A.


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)


Butcher, Sir John George
Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.
Shaw, William T. (Forfar)


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Inskip, Thomas Walker H.
Simm, M. T.


Carr, W. Theodore
Jephcott, A. R.
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)
Jodrell, Neville Paul
Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)


Casey. T.W.
Johnson, Sir Stanley
Steel, Major S. Strang


Chamberlain, Rt. Ho. J. A. (Birm, W.)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Chamberlain, N. (B1rm., Ladywood)
Kellaway, Rt. Hon, Fredk, George
Sturrock, J. Leng


Cheyne, Sir William Watson
Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Churchman, Sir Arthur
Kidd, James
Sugden, W. H.


Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.


Clough, Sir Robert
Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)
Sutherland, Sir William


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Lloyd, George Butler
Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)


Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Lorden, John William
Taylor, J.


Cohen, Major J. Brunel
M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.
Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)


Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill).


Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)
Macleod, J. Mackintosh
Townley, Maximilian G


Doyle, N. Grattan
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Tryon, Major George Clement


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Mallalieu, Frederick William
Tartan, Edmund Russborough


Edgar, Clifford B.
Malone. Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Wallace, J.


Edge, Captain Sir William
Manville, Edward
Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)


Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)
Middlebrook, Sir William
Warren, Sir Alfred H.


Elveden, Viscount
Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon, F. B.
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Mitchell, Sir William Lane
Williams, C. (Tavistock)


Evans, Ernest
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon, Claud


Eyres-Monsell, Corn, Bolton M.
Morrison-Bell, Major A. [...]
Wilson, Joseph H. (South Shields)


Falcon, Captain Michael
Murchison, C. K.
Windsor, Viscount


Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfrey
Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)
Winfrey, Sir Richard


Fell, Sir Arthur
Murray, John (Leeds, West)
Winterton, Earl


Flannery, Sir James Fortescue
Neal, Arthur
Wise, Frederick


Foreman, Sir Henry
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Wormer, Viscount


Forestier, Walker, L.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


Forrest, Walter
Nield, Sir Herbert
Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)


Frece, Sir Walter de
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.
Worsfold, T. Cato


Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John



Ganzoni, Sir John
Parker, James
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Gardner, Ernest
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry
Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.


NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Bromfield, William
Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty)


Ammon, Charles George
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Entwistle, Major C. F.


Banton, George
Cairns, John
Foot, Isaac


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Cape, Thomas
Galbraith, Samuel


Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)
Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)
Gillis, William


Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hilchin)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)


Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Grundy, T. W.


Bramsdon, Sir Thomas
Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)
Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)


Briant, Frank
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)


Hallas, Eldred
Newbould, Alfred Ernest
Tillett, Benjamin


Hayday, Arthur
Rattan, Peter Wilson
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Hayward, Evan
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Waterson, A. E.


Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.


Hirst, G. H.
Robertson, John
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Rose, Frank H.
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Hogue, James Myles
Royce, William Stapleton
Wignall, James


Holmes, J. Stanley
Sexton, James
Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)


John, William (Rhondda, West)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Sitch, Charles H.
Wintringham, Margaret


Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Spencer, George A.
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Lawson, John James
Spoor, B. G.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Lunn, William
Sutton, John Edward



Lyle-Samuel, Alexander
Swan, J. E.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Mr. Neil Maclean and Mr. W.


Mills, John Edmund
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)
Smith.


Murray. Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

CLAUSE 2.—(Reduced duties on cocoa.)

In lieu of the duties of Customs payable on cocoa imported into Great Britain or Ireland there shall, subject to the provisions of Section eight of the Finance Act, 1919, be charged, levied and paid as from the fifteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-two, the following reduced duties, that is to say:



£
s.
d.


Cocoa, the cwt.
1
8
0


Cocoa (husks and shells), the cwt.
0
4
0


Cocoa-butter, the lb.
0
0
3

Provided that in the application of this Section to any duty charged on manufactured or prepared goods under Section seven of the Finance Act, 1901, the first day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-two, shall be substituted for the fifteenth day of May, nineteen hundred red and twenty-two.

Mr. T. THOMSON: I beg to move to leave out "£1 8s. 0d.," and to insert instead thereof "£1 3s. 4d."
The intention was that this Amendment should be taken following a general discussion on a previous Amendment. I wish now merely to make a protest against the conspiracy of silence on the Treasury Bench. There have been 11 speeches from this side of the Committee since the learned Solicitor-General spoke, and I submit that arguments of some weight have been addressed to the Committee, and, although the Debate has gone on for 1½ hours, yet there

has not been any response whatever from the Government side. A matter of importance like this deserves more consideration, and even if speeches be made by back benchers they call for some reply.

Sir L. SCOTT: The last. thing I to do is to be guilty of any discourtesy to any section of Members.

Mr. THOMSON: It was not the right hon. Gentleman who was at fault, for he made his speech; but after he had gone the Committee was left for l hours without anyone else speaking.

Sir L. SCOTT: I think the hon. Member will probably exonerate me for what happened when I was not here. I heard the last speech which preceded the Division just taken, and I felt that the only answer possible—probably an imperfect one—was substantially what. I had said on the first Amendment on the Tea Duty Clause. Feeling that I had attempted to cover the ground indicated in the last speech, I thought it would be discourteous for me to repeat what I had already said.

Question put., "That '£1 8s. 0d.' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 171; Noes, 79.

Division No. 144.]
AYES.
[8.24 p.m.


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Barwick, Major G. O.
Cheyne, Sir William Watson


Aug-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-
Churchman, Sir Arthur


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender


Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Clough, Sir Robert


Atkey, A. R.
Breese, Major Charles E.
Cobb, Sir Cyril


Baird, Sir John Lawrence
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Cohen, Major J. Brunel


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Briggs, Harold
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale


Banner, Sir John S. Harmood
Broad, Thomas Tucker
Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)
Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry


Barrand, A. R.
Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Doyle, N. Grattan


Bartley-Denniss, Sir Edmund Robert
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Carr, W. Theodore
Edgar, Clifford B.


Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.
Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)
Edge, Captain Sir William


Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W)
Casey, T. W.
Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)


Bird, Sir William R. M. (Chichester)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm.,W.)
Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington,w.)


Blair, Sir Reginald
Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)
Evans, Ernest


Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.
Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George
Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel


Fell, Sir Arthur
Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Flannery, Sir James Fortescue
Kidd, James
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Foreman, Sir Henry
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Forestier-Walker, L.
Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)


Forrest, Walter
Lloyd, George Butler
Rodger, A. K.


Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Lorden, John William
Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)


Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Ganzoni, Sir John
M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Gardner, Ernest
Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachle)
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur


Gee, Captain Robert
McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)
Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)


Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John
Macleod, J. Mackintosh
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Goff, Sir R. Park
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)


Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)
Magnus, Sir Philip
Shaw, William T. (Forfar)


Gregory, Holman
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Simm, M. T.


Craig, Colonel Sir James William
Manville, Edward
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Gritten, W. G. Howard
Middlebrook, Sir William
Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)


Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Mitchell, Sir William Lane
Steel, Major S. Strang


Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
M arcing, Captain Algernon H.
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Hamilton, Major Sir C. G. C.
Murchison, C. K.
Sturrock, J. Leng


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)
Sugden, W. H.


Haslam, Lewis
Murray, John (Leeds, West)
Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.


Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)
Neal, Arthur
Sutherland, Sir William


Hennessy, Major.J. R. G.
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)


Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Taylor, J.


Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Nield, Sir Herbert
Thornton, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Hills, Major John Waller
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)


Hinds, John
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
Tryon, Major George Clement


Hood, Sir Joseph
Pain, Brig.-Gen. Sir W. Hacket
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.)
Parker, James
Wallace, J.


Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry
Warren, Sir Alfred H.


Hopkins, John W. W.
Pearce, Sir William
Williams, C. (Tavistock)


Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Moseley)
Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike
Wilson, Rt. Hon. Col. L. O. (R'ding)


Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Winfrey, Sir Richard


Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Perring, William George
Wise, Frederick


Hunter.-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles
Wolmer, Viscount


Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


Inskip, Thomas Walker H.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Wood. Sir J. (Stalybridge and Hyde)


Jephcott, A. R.
Pratt, John William
Worsfold, T. Cato


Jodrell, Neville Paul
Preston, Sir W. R.



Johnson, Sir Stanley
Prescott, Major Sir W. H.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Mr. Dudley Ward and Colonel Gibbs.


NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Grundy, T. W.
Rose, Frank H.


Ammon, Charles George
Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)
Royce, William Stapleton


Banton, George
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Sexton, James


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)
Hayday, Arthur
Sitch, Charles H.


Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
Hayward, Evan
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)


Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Spencer, George A.


Bramsdon, Sir Thomas
Hirst, G. H.
Spoor, B. G.


Briant, Frank
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Bromfield, William
Hogge, James Myles
Sutton, John Edward


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Holmes, J. Stanley
Swan, J. E.


Cairns, John
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Cape, Thomas
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)
Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Tillett, Benjamin


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)
Lawson. John James
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Lunn, William
Waterson, A. E.


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Lyle-Samuel, Alexander
Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col, D.


Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Mills, John Edmund
Wignall, James


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)
Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Newbould, Alfred Ernest
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Poison, Sir Thomas A.
Wintringham, Margaret


Galbraith, Samuel
Raffan, Peter Wilson
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Gillis, William
Richardson. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)



Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Robertson, John
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—




Mr. T. Thomson and Mr. Foot.

Motion made, and Question proposed, ''That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. MACLEAN: I oppose this on-the same lines as those on which I opposed Clause 1. The arguments that-were pertinent to the rejection of that
Clause are equally pertinent in the present case. The main ground on which I move the rejection of the Clause—

The CHAIRMAN: The question is that the Clause as a whole stand part, and the hon. Member can vote against that.

Mr. MACLEAN: I should have said that I am speaking against the acceptance of the Clause as a whole by the Committee. I merely remind the Committee of the objections which I brought forward in the case of Clause 1. They apply equally to this Clause. We want a free breakfast table, and I hope Mem-

bers of the Government will join with Members of the Opposition in giving the people a free breakfast table.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 180: Noes, 71.

Division No. 145.]
AYES.
[8.30 p.m.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham
Pearce, Sir William


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John
Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike


Armitage, Robert
Golf, Sir R. Park
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.
Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)
Perring, William George


Atkey, A. R.
Gregory, Holman
Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles


Baird, Sir John Lawrence
Greig, Colonel Sir James William
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Gritten, W. G. Howard
Poison, Sir Thomas A.


Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Pratt, John William


Barrand, A. R.
Hamilton, Major Sir C. G. C.
Preston, Sir W. R.


Bartley-Denniss, Sir Edmund Robert
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Prescott, Major Sir W. H.


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Rae, Sir Henry N.


Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.
Haslam, Lewis
Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel


Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)
Remer, J. R.


Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Blair, Sir Reginald
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford. Watford)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Blake, Sir Francis Douglas
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Barwick, Major G. O.
Hills, Major John Waller
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)


Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-
Hinds, John
Rodger, A. K.


Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Hood, Sir Joseph
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Breese, Major Charles E.
Hope, Sir H.(Stirling & C'ckm'nn,W.)
Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Briggs, Harold
Hopkins, John W. W.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Broad, Thomas Tucker
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster. Mossley)
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)
Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)
Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Scott. Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Seddon, J. A.


Carr, W. Theodore
Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.
Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)


Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)
Inskip, Thomas Walker H.
Shaw, William T. (Forfar)


Casey, T. W.
Jephcott, A. R.
Simm, M. T.


Chamberlain, Rt. H n. J. A. (Birm. W.)
Jodrell, Neville Paul
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)
Johnson, Sir Stanley
Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)


Cheyne, Sir William Watson
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)


Churchman, Sir Arthur
Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George
Steel, Major S. Strang


Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Clough, Sir Robert
Kidd, James
Sturrock, J. Leng


Cobb, Sir Cyril
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)
Sugden, W. H.


Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Lloyd, George Butler
Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.


Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)
Lorden, John William
Sutherland, Sir William


Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry
M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.
Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddesfield)


Doyle, N. Grattan
McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)
Taylor, J.


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Magnus, Sir Philip
Terrell. George (Wilts, Chippenham)


Edgar, Clifford B.
Mallalieu, Frederick William
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Edge, Captain Sir William
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)


Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)
Manville, Edward
Tryon, Major George Clement


Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)
Middlebrook, Sir William
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Mitchell, Sir William Lane
Wallace, J.


Evans, Ernest
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Walters, Fit. Hon. Sir John Tudor


Eyres-Monsell, Corn. Bolton M.
Murchison, C. K.
Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)


Fell, Sir Arthur
Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)
Warren, Sir Alfred H.


Flannery, Sir James Fortescue
Murray, John (Leeds, West)
Williams, C. (Tavistock)


Foreman, Sir Henry
Neal, Arthur
Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud


Forestier-Walker, L.
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Wise, Frederick


Forrest, Walter
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Wolmer, Viscount


France, Gerald Ashburner
Nield, Sir Herbert
Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.
Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Norton.-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
Worsfold, T. Cato


Ganzoni, Sir John
Pain, Brig.-Gen. Sir W. Hacket



Gardner, Ernest
Parker, James
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Gee, Captain Robert
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry
Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.


NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)
Cairns, John


Banton, George
Bramsdon, Sir Thomas
Cape, Thomas


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Briant, Frank
Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)


Barnes. Major H. (Newcastle, E.)
Bromfield, William.
Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)


Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Lawson, John James
Swan, J. E.


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Lunn, William
Thomas, Rt. Hon. lames H. (Derby)


Foot, Isaac
Lyle-Samuel, Alexander
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Galbraith, Samuel
Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Gillis, William
Mills, John Edmund
Tillett, Benjamin


Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Newbould, Alfred Ernest
Waterson, A. E.


Grundy, T. W.
Raffan, Peter Wilson
Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.


Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Hall, F. (York, W.A., Normanton)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Heyday, Arthur
Robertson, John
Wignall, James


Hayward, Evan
Rose, Frank H.
Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)


Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Royce, William Stapleton
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Hirst, G. H.
Sexton, James
Wintringham, Margaret


Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Hogge, James Myles
Sitch, Charles H.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Holmes,.J. Stanley
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)



John, William (Rhondda, West)
Spencer, George A.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Spoor, B. G.
Mr. Ammon and Mr. Neil Maclean.


Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Sutton, John Edward

CLAUSE. 3—(Reduced duties on Coffee, chicory, and coffee substitutes.)

(1) In lieu of the duties of Customs payable on coffee and chicory imported into Great Britain or Ireland there shall, subject to the provisions of Section eight of the Finance Act. 1919, be charged, levied and paid as from the fifteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-two, the following reduced duties, that is to say:



£
s.
d.


Coffee (not kiln-dried, roasted or ground), the cwt.
1
8
0


Coffee (kiln-dried, roasted or ground), the lb.
0
0
4


Chicory (raw or kiln-dried), the cwt.
1
6
6


Chicory (roasted or ground), the lb.
0
0
4

(2) In lieu of the duty of Excise payable on chicory there shall, as from the fifteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-two, be charged, levied and paid the following reduced duty, that is to my:



£
s.
d.


Chicory (raw or kiln-dried), the cwt.
1
1
1

and so in proportion for any less quantity.

(3) In lieu of the duty of Excise now pay-able in respect of coffee substitutes there shall, as from the fifteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-two, be charged, levied and paid on any article or substance prepared or manufactured for the purpose of being in imitation of, or in any respect to resemble, or to serve as a substitute for, coffee or chicory, and on any mixture of any such article or substance with coffee or chicory, the following reduced duty. that is to say:



£
s.
d.


For every quarter of a. pound of any such article., substance or mixture, which is sold or kept for sale in Great Britain or Ireland
0
0
1

(4) For the rates of drawback an coffee and chicory and mixtures of coffee and chicory specified in Section twenty-two of the Finance Act, 1916, there shall be substituted the following reduced rates, that is to say:



£
s.
d.


Coffee, far every 100 lbs,
1
8
0


Chicory, for every 100 lbs.
1
2
6


Mixtures of coffee and chicory, for every 100 lbs.
1
2
6

Provided that the reduction of rates under this Sub-section shall not have effect in relation to any goods as respects which it is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise that duty was paid at the rate in force before the fifteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-two.

The CHAIRMAN: The first Amendment to this Clause, standing in the name of the hon. and gallant. Member for East Newcastle (Major Barnes)—[in Subsection (1), after the word "or," to insert the word "Northern"]—and the second Amendment, in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Central. Aberdeen (Major M. Wood)—[in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "subject to the provisions of Section eight of the Finance Act, 1919"]—are covered by previous decisions.

Amendment. proposed: In Sub-section (1), leave out "£1 8s.," and insert instead thereof "£1 1s."—[Mr. Foot.]

Question nut, "That £1 8s.' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 173; Noes, 79.

Division No. 146.]
AYES.
[8.4o p.m.


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Atkey, A. R.
Barrand, A. R.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Bartley-Denniss, Sir Edmund Robert


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-
Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)


Armitage, Robert
Barnett, Major Richard W.
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)


Astbury, Lieut.-Com. F[...]ederick W.
Barnston, Major Harry
Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)


Blair, Sir Reginald
Haslam, Lewis
Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles


Berwick, Major G. O.
I Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton


Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Pratt, John William


Breese, Major Charles E.
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Preston, Sir W. R.


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Hills, Major John Waller
Prescott, Major Sir W. H.


Briggs, Harold
Hinds, John
Rae, Sir Henry N.


Broad, Thomas Tucker
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)
Hood, Sir Joseph
Remer, J. R.


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.)
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Carr, W. Theodore
Hopkins, John W. W.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Rodger, A. K.


Casey, T. W.
Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)


Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Cheyne, Sir William Watson
Hurst. Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Churchman, Sir Arthur
Inskip, Thomas Walker H.
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur


Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
Jodreil, Neville Paul
Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)


Clough, Sir Robert
Johnson, Sir Stanley
Scott. Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)


Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George
Shaw, William T. (Forfar)


Colvin, Brigs.-General Richare Beale
Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)
Simm, M. T.


Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)
Kidd, James
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)


Doyle, N. Grattan
Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)
Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Lloyd, George Butler
Steel, Major S. Strang


Edgar, Clifford B.
Lorden, John William
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Edge, Captain Sir William
M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.
Sturrock, J. Leng


Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Sugden, W. H.


Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir D. (Islington, W.)
Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)
Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.


Evans, Ernest
McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)
Sutherland, Sir William


Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.
Macleod. J. Mackintosh
Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)


Fell, Sir Arthur
Magnus, Sir Philip
Taylor, J.


Flannery, Sir James Fortescue
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)


Foreman, Sir Henry
Manville, Edward
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Forestier Walker, L.
Middlebrook, Sir William
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell. (Maryhill)


Forrest, Walter
Mitchell, Sir William Lane
Tryon, Major George Clement


Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Murchison, C. K.
Wallace, J.


Ganzoni, Sir John
Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)
Waiters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor


Gardner. Ernest
Murray, John (Leeds, West)
Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)


Gee, Captain Robert
Noal, Arthur
Warren, Sir Alfred H.


Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham
Newson. Sir Percy Wilson
Williams, C. (Tavistock)


Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John
Newton. Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud


Goff, Sir R. Park
Nield, Sir Herbert
Winterton, Earl


Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)
Norris. Colonel Sir Henry G.
Wise, Frederick


Gregory, Holman
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


Greig, Colonel Sir James William
Pain, Brig.-Gen. Sir W. Hacket
Wood. Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


Gritten, W. G. Howard
Parker, James
Worsfold, T. Cato


Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry



Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Pearce, Sir William
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Hamilton, Major Sir C. G. C.
Pease. Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike
Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.


Hannon Patrick Joseph Henry
Perring, William George



NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Royce, William Stapleton


Ammon, Charles George
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Sexton, James


Banton, George
Hayday, Arthur
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hayward, Evan
Sitch, Charles H.


Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)


Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)
Hirst, G. H.
Spencer, George A.


Bramsdon, Sir Thomas
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Spoor, B. G.


Briant, Frank
Hogge, James Myles
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Bromfleid, William
Holmes. J. Stanley
Sutton, John Edward


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Swan, J. E.


Cairns, John
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Cape, Thomas
Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)
Kiley James Daniel
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Lawson, John James
Tillett, Benjamin


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Lunn, William
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)


Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)
Lyle-Samuel, Alexander
Waterson, A. E.


Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D.(Midlothian)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Mills, John Edmund
Wignall, James


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)
Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Newhould, Alfred Ernest
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Galbraith, Samuel
Poison, Sir Thomas A.
Wintringham, Margaret


Gillis, William
Rattan, Peter Wilson
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)



Grundy, T. W.
Robertson, John
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)
Rose. Frank H.
Mr. Foot and Mr. C. White.

The CHAIRMAN: The remaining Amendments on this Clause are either covered by, or are consequential upon, the decision just taken.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. MACLEAN: This Clause imposes a duty upon coffee, and the argument, which I used earlier in the Debate, might easily be applied also to this Clause, that we have for many years been desirous of a free breakfast table. I have a new Clause on the Paper having for its object the entire repeal of the duty upon coffee. We at least upon these benches have no desire to continue the imposition of taxes of this nature. The duty on coffee not only presses hard upon the people of this country, but, if the old argument of the Tariff Reformer holds good, that the country which sends the commodity pays the tax, there is bound to be a considerable amount of friction between this country and the countries from which we import the chief quantities of coffee. If there be any truth in the statement that the foreigner pays, we know where we are; but I am rather inclined to believe that it is the consumer who pays, and that Members opposite themselves realise that, when they are at such pains, at varying intervals, to reduce the taxation upon those articles, and then come before this House, and through this House assure the country that they have conferred a boon upon the taxpaying community by reducing taxes. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us already to-day, our tea is cheaper because we have reduced the duty upon it. All the arguments that are put forward by Members on the opposite benches with regard to the taxation of food or other commodities which are brought into this country are certainly very contradictory when we view them in the light of actual experience.

The CHAIRMAN: The speech of the hon. Member might be directed to any subject of direct taxation, and might have been in order on the first tax imposed by the Finance Bill. I must now ask him to give his reasons why the duty on coffee should not be imposed.

Mr. MACLEAN: My reasons why we should not have a tax upon coffee I have been trying to elaborate, and I was leading up to the point of saying what the actual incidence of the duty meant to the working people of this country. I was going on to point out the actual hardship bearing upon them and the inconsistency in the statements of Ministers and Members on the other side relative to the imposition of this duty. However, I do not think the Committee, particularly at this time of the evening, are desirous of hearing a very elaborate discussion on the Coffee Duty, one reason being that many of them are being detained from their coffee in order to take part in the next Division, I will not. therefore, stand in the way of their getting to their taxed coffee at the earliest possible moment.

Mr. AMMON: I rise to support the opposition to this duty. This is a matter which really requires the serious consideration of this Committee, because coffee is being consumed in larger quantities than was the rule hitherto, and though it may be that the consumption of coffee is being temporarily suspended so far as certain members of this Committee are concerned, we are concerned more with the community, and, at a time when people are more neurotic than they have ever been, it certainly would be disadvantageous if we continued the duty on this necessary stimulant in the manner suggested. I saw in the paper the other day, in reference to this question of coffee drinking, a point that, I imagine, will prove of interest to hon. Members on opposite benches. It was said there that those nations, like the Turks, which drink much coffee show an absence of gout that is striking. That, too, would seem to suggest taking the duty off coffee.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes. 189: Noes, 72.

Division No. 147]
AYES.
[8.57 p m.


Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent
Atkey, A. R.
Barrand, A. R.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Baird, Sir John Lawrence
Bartley-Denniss, Sir Edmund Robert


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)


Armitage, Robert
Banner. Sir John S. Harmood
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W,)


Armstrong, Henry Bruce
Barnett, Major Richard W.
Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)


Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.
Barnston, Major Harry
Blair, Sir Reginald


Berwick, Major G. O.
Henderson, Lt.-Col, V. L. (Tradeston)
Perring, William George


Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles


Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Breese, Major Charles E.
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Poison, Sir Thomas A.


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Hills, Major John Wailer
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton


Briggs, Harold
Hinds, John
Pratt, John William


Broad, Thomas Tucker
Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Preston, Sir W. R.


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Prescott, Major Sir W. H.


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Hood, Sir Joseph
Rae, Sir Henry N.


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Hope, Sir H.(Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.)
Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel


Carr, W. Theodore
Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Remer, J. R.


Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)
Hopkins, John W. W.
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Casey, T. W.
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)
Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)


Cheyne, Sir William Watson
Hunter-Weston. Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Rodger, A. K.


Churchman, Sir Arthur
Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.
Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)


Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
Inskip, Thomas Walker H.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Clough, Sir Robert
Jephcott, A. R.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Jodrell, Neville Paul
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur


Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Johnson, Sir Stanley
Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)


Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)


Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George
Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)


Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)
Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)
Shaw, William T. (Forfar)


Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)
Kidd, James
Simm, M. T.


Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Doyle, N. Grattan
Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)
Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)
Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)


Edgar, Clifford B.
Lloyd, George Butler
Steel, Major S. Strang


Edge, Captain Sir William
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)
Lorden, John William
Sturrock, J. Leng


Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington. W.)
McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.
Sugden, W. H.


Evans, Ernest
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.


Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.
Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)
Sutherland, Sir William


Fell, Sir Arthur
McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)
Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)


Flannery, Sir James Fortescue
Macleod, J. Mackintosh
Taylor, J.


Foreman, Sir Henry
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)


Forestier-Walker, L.
Mallalieu, Frederick William
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Forrest, Walter
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham. S.)
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)


Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Manville, Edward
Tryon, Major George Clement


Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Middlebrook, Sir William
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Ganzoni, Sir John
Mitchell, Sir William Lane
Wallace, J.


Gardner, Ernest
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Waiters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor


Gee, Captain Robert
Murchison, C. K.
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)


Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham
Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)
Warren, Sir Alfred H.


Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John
Murray, John (Leeds, West)
Williams, C. (Tavistock)


Goff, Sir R. Park
Neal, Arthur
Willoughby. Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud


Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Winfrey, Sir Richard


Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)
Newton. Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Winterton, Earl


Gregory, Holman
Weld, Sir Herbert
Wise, Frederick


Greig, Colonel Sir James William
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.
Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


Gritten, W. G. Howard
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Pain, Brig.-Gen. Sir W. Hacket
Worsfold, T. Cato


Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Parker, James



Hamilton. Mayor Sir C. G. C.
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Pearce, Sir William
Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Dudley Ward.


Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike



Haslam, Lewis




NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Ammon, Charles George
Hayday, Arthur
Sitch, Charles H.


Banton, George
Hayward, Evan
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Spencer, George A.


Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
Hirst, G. H.
Spoor. B. G.


Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)
Hedge, Rt. Hon. John
Station, John Edward


Bramsdon, Sir Thomas
Hogge, James Myles
Swan, J. E.


Briant, Frank
Holmes. J. Stanley
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Bromfield, William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Cairns, John
Kiley, James Daniel
Tillett, Benjamin


Cape, Thomas
Lawson, John James
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)
Lunn, William
Waterson, A. E.


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)
Watts-Morgan. Lieut.-Col. D.


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Mills, John Edmund
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Mosley, Oswald
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)
Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)
Wignall, James


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Newbould, Alfred Ernest
Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Rattan, Peter Wilson
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Foot, Isaac
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen. C.)


Galbraith. Samuel
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Gillis, William
Robertson, John



Graham. W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Rose, Frank H.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Royce, William Stapleton
Mr. Neil Maclean and Mr. Morgan Jones.


Grundy, T. W.
Sexton, James



Guest, J. (York. W.R., Hemsworth)

CLAUSE 4.—(Continuation of customs duties imposed under 5 &6 Geo. 5, c. 89.)

The new import duties and the additional Customs duties on dried fruits imposed by Part I of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, shall, subject to the provisions of Section eight of the Finance Act, 1919, continue to he charged, levied and paid in the case of the new import duties until the first day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, and in the case of the duties on dried fruits until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-three.

The CHAIRMAN: I propose to allow a general discussion on the first Amendment to the Clause. I could not permit such discussion to be repeated on the four following Amendments dealing with the duties on motor cars, motor cycles, musical instruments and so on, and suggesting, as they do, certain exceptions to the duties. But hon. Members may, of course, move their Amendments, and vote upon them.

Mr. KILEY: Do I understand that by that you intend to rule out discussion on the details of the Amendments which are on the Paper?

The CHAIRMAN: I am not bound to accept any of these specific Amendments, but the arguments relative to any of these exceptions may be put forward in the main discussion, and there can be specific propositions divided upon later.

Sir W. BARTON: I beg to move to leave out the words "The new import duties and."
What this Amendment really amounts to is asking for the repeal of what are known as the McKenna Duties of 1915 which impose a tariff of 33⅓ per cent. on certain articles, including motor cars, motor cycles and accessories, clocks, watches, musical instruments, cinema films, etc. A good deal of controversy has been caused amongst Free Traders and Protectionists as to the justification, at any time, for these duties. The then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. McKenna, was, and is, as we know, a man of profound experience of political and commercial life, a great economist and, I think, a sound Free Trader. As far as my recollection serves me, I opposed by my vote these duties when they were proposed, although I acted with some degree of reluctance in view of the undoubted authority and experience of the then Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have
since watched with very great carefulness what seemed to be the justification or otherwise of those duties, and I am bound to say that watching that effect has reconfirmed me in my belief in the policy and principle of Free Trade.
I feel that even things done in time of war, which were contrary to that policy, have not been justified. The longer I view this matter I regard Protection more and more as a slippery slope on which, if a man or a nation once sets foot, there is almost no possibility of pulling up. This Amendment raises afresh the whole question of Protection, a subject, perhaps, more vigorous in the minds of the real statesmen in the world to-day than it has ever been before. It seems to me that statesmen are constantly saying the things which we ought to do, and they are constantly doing the very opposite. As a matter of fact, politicians are carrying out totally different policies. We have at the head of our own affairs a world statesman and a party politician, and he tells us that we ought to sweep away the barriers which stand between men and men and nations and nations, and that we ought to have the freest access between one country and another, in order that each may exchange freely, one with the other, the things which they are best capable of producing.

Lieut.-Colonel J. WARD: On a point of Order. Mr. Chairman, I do not mind all these statements being made, but would like to know if hon. Members who follow will be allowed to deal with them.

The CHAIRMAN: I was about to suggest to the hon. Member for Oldham (Sir W. Barton) that he might shorten his approach to the question of the new import duties.

Sir W. BARTON: I question the relevance of the interruption, but I accept your ruling, Mr. Chairman. I think, however, I am within my right in recalling the definite conditions under which these duties were imposed, namely, the ground of the difference in the exchange, the ground of luxuries, and the need of carrying space or tonnage in our ships during time of war. The position of the exchange is one on which a little fresh light has come to us during the intervening period. I think in 1915 economists were more cocksure when
they spoke on the subject of exchange than they are to-day, and they said as we could not increase our exports we must reduce our imports, and thus secure the balance of exchange. Another reason put forward for imposing these duties was that we could do very well without luxury articles, especially as it was necessary to reserve tonnage in our ships for more` necessary things. These were the special reasons put forward for imposing these duties, and it was said that they were for the period of the War and nothing further. I think I am right in saying that the then Leader of the House (Mr. Bonar Law) said that duties of this kind would never be considered in any circumstances when the War was over.
I want us to look for a moment at what the position is to-day in relation to the grounds which were given as the justification for the imposition of these duties in 1915. With regard to the question of exchange, I think the whole world recognises to-day that the only way in which you can get back to a sound exchange between nation and nation is by a vigourous carrying on of mutual exportations and importations. There were those in the past who did sometimes talk as if it were possible to export without importing, but that view has now been for ever exploded. If you will not import, neither will you export, and if you do not balance your imports and exports, your exchange cannot come to anything approaching par value. On the ground of carrying space, which was the main ground put forward at the time of the imposition of these duties, surely no one would argue to-day that that would be the slightest justification at this moment for keeping on these duties, because we have in all our ports a large number of ships lying idle. As a matter of fact, the one thing our shipowners are crying out for is tonnage, and consequently to the extent that these duties were intended to reserve carrying space the state of things is reversed.
I come back to the point that the world circumstances of 1915 are totally reversed to-day. Then we had to contemplate dearness and scarcity as a necessary outcome of the War. Surely to-day the need of this nation and of all Europe is plenty and cheapness. I should be sorry indeed to think that many of
my hon. Friends who were returned to this House, as I was, as Coalition Liberals are any less Free Traders than I am. I hold this opinion very strongly, that here is a subject which affords a clear test on which side we are. I appeal sincerely and honestly to Members of this House who believe in the opinions which world statesmen are expressing—I do not care what they call themselves—that we should sweep away all barriers to trade and all things which prevent one nation dealing with another, to set an example in this home of liberty and Free Trade by sweeping away these purely war-time duties. In doing so we shall be following on the lines of the best thought, and we shall give more encouragement to Europe than by anything else we could do.

Sir L. SCOTT: I think it will be convenient to the Committee if I rise at once to answer the interesting speech to which we have just listened. The sincerity and conviction of the speaker are undoubted, and as a lawyer I should like to pay a tribute to the excellent way in which he has stated his case. At the same time I want, if I may, to ask the Committee to approach this matter not from the point of view of that very interesting and abstract question—Free Trade versus the Tariff system—but from the point of view of the exigencies of our financial needs to-day. I appreciate that the reasons for which the duties were introduced in 1915. were, amongst others, those to which the hon. Gentleman referred in his speech, i.e., shipping space, exchange, and so on. But in addition to that, there was a need then which unfortunately continued to-day, a need of money and a need of credit. In addition to these duties tending to shut out imports and thereby save shipping freight, Mr. McKenna, in introducing them, pointed out that they would bring money to the Exchequer. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment said it was commonly agreed that when the War was over these duties were to be abolished. I am not sure that I can entirely accept that statement. But assuming it does express the position as it then was, the phrase really meant when the country got back to normal financial conditions. We are not, however, there yet. We are a very long way from normal conditions, and it is simply and solely because the financial conditions of to-day are very much more like war conditions
than peace conditions, because of the heritage of the War, that the Government is obliged to continue this taxation and to continue to tap sources of taxation which in absolutely normal times might very possibly not be tapped. It is from that point of view that I ask the Committee to approach this question.
I do not want it approached as an abstract question of principle or from the point of view whether or not this is the best way of raising money, but I want the Committee to realise that the machinery for raising money by these duties is in existence, and that the duties are in existence as well, and, as far as one can judge, are not causing any particular grievance. It is from that point of view that I ask the Committee to accept the principle of the Clause. The acceptance of the Amendment would mean a sacrifice of just under £1,500,000 of revenue. I agree there were reasons other than financial reasons for proposing these duties in the first instance. The whole of these duties on motor-cars, watches and clocks, musical instruments, and so on—

Major BARNES: Can the hon. and learned Gentleman tell us what is the total yield of the duties?

Sir L. SCOTT: I have just said £1.500,000, or, to be quite accurate, £20,000 under that sum. When this very same point was considered when the Budget Resolutions were before the House on the 8th May last, the Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out that it was absolutely impossible at the present time to forego this £1,500,000. It is quite true that at the present moment, as a result of the trade depression, the motorcar industry in this country, which employs a very large number of men, is in a very seriously depressed state.

Dr. MURRAY: And so are other trades and industries.

Sir L. SCOTT: We are not discussing other industries at the moment. We are discussing the industries primarily affected by these duties, and the industry which above all others is affected by those import duties is the motor industry. It is not an auspicious moment, when a large number of men in that industry are unemployed, to take off the duty.

Mr. FRANCE: According to a return originally published, the yield of these duties was actually £5,480,000 as against an estimate of £3,750,000. How does the hon. and learned Gentleman make it that the yield is only £1,500,000?

Sir L. SCOTT: The figure quoted by my hon. Friend, of £5,480,000, represents the receipts for the year 1920–1. The receipts for last year had fallen, no doubt on account of the trade depression, to £1,698,000, and the estimate for this year is £1,480,000. That is where I got my figure of £1,500,000—just £20,000 below £1,500,000. I do not propose at this moment to go into details. I do not think it necessary to weary the Committee with them at this stage. I say, simply and generally, and with perfect candour, we must have this money. We cannot afford to give it up, apart altogether from the interesting questions of economic principle which the Mover of the Amendment discussed.

Mr. FRANCE: The Solicitor-General, I take it, bases his appeal to the Committee to reject this Amendment, not on the ground of principle as between a protective tariff and Free Trade, but simply on the ground of financial necessity. He asks us for the time being to disregard the reasons which led the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day to impose these duties. At that time there were reasons, right or wrong—some of us did not approve of them, and thought it would have been better if it had never been done—with regard to the traffic crossing the seas and the measures to be taken to reduce that traffic; but the Solicitor-General asked us to disregard either the origin of these duties or the effect they have on any principles often debated in this House, and simply to regard it as whether or not the Treasury can afford to part with this £1,500,000. If that be so, may I point out that if a year ago these duties realised nearly £5,000,000, if last year they only realised rather over £1,500,000, and if the Estimate for the coming year is less than £1,500,000, then it seems to me to be a most auspicious moment for doing without this diminishing revenue. From the point of view of revenue these taxes are obviously not a success.
Although the Solicitor-General asks us to look at the question from that point of view, we must also take some note of the fact that he, under the influence of
some side wind, did speak about the effect that these duties had upon unemployment and the trade of the country. If he takes it from that standpoint, then again from the very fact that the revenue obtained is diminishing so rapidly, and the Estimates for this year are at a reduced figure, I do not think he can show with any satisfaction from any point of view that these duties have been a success. More than that, we cannot forget what he touched upon lightly, that when these duties were imposed, whatever were the reasons, the House, listening to the words of the Government of that day, was given to understand that they were only imposed for a temporary period, for the period of the War; and that at the end of that time they would be removed. When a Debate took place shortly after this Government came into power, that promise was, so far as my recollection goes, merely postponed, and an understanding come to that they should only be renewed for that year with a view to their abolition at the end of that time. Now, because there is £1,450,000 expected from them, we are told we must adhere to these duties for revenue purposes.
I would ask the Solicitor-General, if that is the ground on which he bases his defence of these duties, to reconsider the matter, and see whether or not some other method cannot be found for raising this amount of money. If revenue is the only consideration, and if all considerations of protection are ruled out of this discussion, then it is quite obvious it would be better method of increasing the amount of revenue by taking the duty from cars coming from abroad and putting some duty on them in this country, a countervailing duty or an equal excise, so as to remove what is not held by the Government to be a ground for supporting them, namely, the ground that they were of a protective nature. I would strongly urge that the Solicitor-General does not appear to have given very good grounds for the retention of the duties, and he should reconsider the matter and endeavour to persuade the Government to remove them.

Mr. MOSLEY: The Solicitor-General began by resting his case purely on the ground of revenue, but in the concluding passages of his speech be instanced the
case of the motor industry, and stated that a measure of protection in its present condition of unemployment was very urgently required by that industry. That Ls an illuminating advance on previous—

Sir L. SCOTT: I merely said that the present moment, when unemployment was very bad in the motor industry, did not seem a particularly auspicious one to take off the duty in question.

Mr. MOSLEY: I think that is substantially what I said. The motor industry is in a bad way, and in the opinion of the Solicitor-General it requires some measure of protection; consequently, he is not desirous of removing these duties and of returning to the traditional system of this country. There are a very great many industries in this country to-day which are in a bad way and, by the same process of reasoning, might require an even greater measure of protection than is afforded by this tax. How admirable a justification of the fears of my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment and who spoke of a slippery slope which speedily led downwards. I do not wish to rest my case entirely on the broad principle of theory which the Solicitor-General so entirely disclaimed, though I must admit that the Mover of the Amendment has, indeed, a strong ground when he cites the recommendations of international experts at all those great conferences which are held up from the Government Benches as a panacea for all human ills. When we reflect on the recommendations of the experts at Brussels, and the reiterated recommendations which were issued from Genoa, stating that the pre-requisite for European and world recovery was the removal of the tariff barriers, it is, indeed, a lamentable commentary upon the methods of the present Government who advocate so strongly those principles at Genoa while the Solicitor-General comes here and argues in favour of a Protective system.
With regard to this question of revenue, and the more detailed matter stressed by the Solicitor-General, I should like to bring to his notice one or two points upon those duties which I have already brought to the notice of the Treasury, and of which, I am afraid, he will be unaware. There are cases of commodities taxed by these duties from which no revenue what-
soever has been derived by the Exchequer, while considerable impediments to English trade have been constituted. I can give him one particular case, a case that primâ facie would appear super-eminently to be a luxury case, that of old violins. It sounds a very trivial matter, but it raises a very great question of principle, and it typifies the kind of thing that happens under a system such as this. There are certain firms in this country, and one in particular which operates within my own constituency, engaged in a very great entrepot trade in these old instruments. The process is to purchase violins in Austria or Germany, to bring them to this country for purposes of repair and testing, which provides a quite considerable industry in the locality in which I am interested, and then to re-export them to America.
It is quite evident that, in the present state of our finances, luxuries such as these are not bought on any great scale in this country. The tax-gatherer has seen to that. Furthermore, the firms in question are prepared to pro-duce their books and accounts to the Treasury, and to prove conclusively that none of these instruments are required for sale in England; they are all exported to America. What is the effect of such a transaction? The effect, so far as the exchange is concerned, is to benefit the exchange of the Central European countries, to benefit the exchange of this country, and to depreciate in our favour the exchange of America. That is scarcely a transaction so detrimental to our exchange as would appear from the description furnished by the Solicitor-General. The hon. and learned Gentle-man may reply, "Yes, but on re-export the money can he demanded and refunded." That is quite true, but what are the practical difficulties, which the bureaucracy sometimes do not realise? The Customs authorities, when these violins are landed in this country, are compelled, for purposes of identification, which is a very difficult process, to attach—

Mr. HOHLER: On a point of Order. Is this relevant to the matter in question, which is whether motor-cars, which, so far as we know, are not re-exported, should pay a duty? This appears to have something to do with ancient fiddles.

The CHAIRMAN: Certainly. Musical instruments of all kinds were included in the duties levied under the Finance Act, 1915.

Mr. MOSLEY: That interruption shows how unpopular our opposition to these taxes has become. It is the second time this evening that we have been interrupted on entirely irrelevant points of Order. As I was endeavouring to explain, it is not possible to perform all the operations which are necessary in connection with these violins, owing to the precautions that must be taken by-the Customs authorities for purposes of identification. When the instruments are landed in this country, large seals are attached to them by the Customs authorities, in order that no sharp practice or substitution of a different violin may take place, and it is evident that they must take that precaution, because the identification and classification of these old instruments is a highly expert business. When the seals are attached, it is impossible either to repair the instruments in the factory established for the purpose in my constituency, or to test them in another place where they are taken for that purpose. It is obvious that you cannot repair a violin with great seals stuck all over it, which may not be broken, and it is obvious that an expert cannot play a violin with seals stuck upon the strings on which he per-forms. Consequently, this trade is becoming impossible to carry on in this country. The effect of these duties is, if persisted in, will be entirely to banish this trade abroad and to banish the highly skilled labour engaged in it.
This is but one small case. It is a case in which an apparent luxury is in reality a raw material of our industry. The old violin is actually the raw material upon which the skilled finishing processes of English labour can be performed, to the benefit of the exchange of this country and of the exchanges of the Central European countries, at the expense of the American exchange. That benefit is highly conducive to a recovery of the economic condition of the world. In so far as this transaction operates, it is entirely beneficial to all those causes to which the hon. and learned Gentleman considers it to b[...] so detrimental, and no doubt there are innumerable other cases which are enmeshed in the clumsy net of these duties, to the
very great detriment of English trade. I hope, therefore, that if it is decided to persist in their maintenance, the hon. and learned Gentleman will, in accordance with his own argument, undertake an inquiry into some of their practical results.

Sir F. BANBURY: My hon. Friend the Member for Batley (Mr. France) said that the actual yield of these duties two years ago was £5,000,000, whereas now it is only estimated to be something like £1,500,000, and he rather came to the conclusion that that showed that the duties were unsuccessful. I am not at all sure, however, that it does. Perhaps we may draw this conclusion, that the result of the duties has been to introduce employment into this country, and that articles which were imported from abroad two years ago are now being manufactured in this country.

Mr. FRANCE: May I say that my special point was, on the ground put forward by the Solicitor-General, that these were revenue-producing taxes, that the amount had diminished so much from that point of view that they were not a success and we could do without them?

Sir L. SCOTT: Would it he convenient to the right hon. Baronet if I just intervene for a moment? I should like to point out that in the year 1920–21, when the receipts were very high, there was a very large number of people in this country, at that time of trade boom, who were buying motor-cars. The construction of cars during the War had ceased altogether, and the supply had not nearly caught up with the demand at that date. The result was that a very considerable number were imported into this country.

Mr. FRANCE: Despite the duty?

Sir L. SCOTT: Yes. I want to be perfectly candid. I think that that is probably the explanation, but no doubt to some extent the duty has operated in the way which the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London is now indicating. The inference drawn by the hon. Member for Batley that the duties are not a success, because the receipts from them are decreasing, is, I venture to think, an unsound inference.
As far as we can judge, there are signs of revival, and it is hoped that the industries affected by these duties are now on the upward grade, though still in need of help.

Sir F. BANBURY: I was not going into the arguments of the Solicitor-General, but merely into those of my hon. Friend, and I think it is quite arguable to suggest that the possible cause of the decrease is that the work is being carried on in our own country instead of abroad. I should have thought that that was what the Labour party desired. Certainly it is what I desire, and is what I believe a great number of Members of all parties desire. Before I sit down, I should like to say one word about violins. I am not a musician myself, but I fail to understand the argument of the hon. Member for Harrow (Mr. Mosley). I may be wrong, but I think I am right in saying that if a violin is brought in from abroad and re-exported the duty can be refunded. Therefore, in the first place, the only damage done is that a little trouble is caused in going to the Inland Revenue Department to get the duty back, and I do not think we need cry out very much over that. In the second place, I think that if an American wants to buy an old violin he does not bother what the price is. He buys it because it is an old violin, and because he can show it in his house in Chicago or wherever it may he, and say, "I gave so many dollars for that particular instrument," and the more dollars he gave the better he is pleased. Therefore, I think the only argument that can be adduced against this provision is that the person who buys a violin has to pay a duty which he gets back, and that, if he were to sell it at a high price to an American, he might make a little more than he can at the present moment. That is not a very serious argument against the duties.

Mr. NEWBOULD: I am rather sorry for the Solicitor-General, because I feel sure he would like to defend these taxes on pure Protectionist grounds—on the same grounds as they have just been defended by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury)—but in the present Cabinet that is not permitted. You must not talk Protection. You must only act it. The right hon. Gentleman is debarred from really ex-
pressing the views which I am sure he holds in regard to these taxes. I wish to discuss the effect of this duty on films. It is bad in all respects. The revenue derived front it is not worthy of consideration. There is a third of a penny on the raw stock. That has the effect of increasing the price of the raw material to the British producer of the pictures. The next duty is a penny on the print from the negative. That has the effect of keeping the prints out of this country. We do not get the best negatives from which the prints are taken, but a secondary negative of inferior quality, the result being that the prints taken in this country are inferior to those taken from the original negative, so that the second portion of this duty is bad. The third is worse than the other two combined. It is a duty of 5d. per foot on the exposed negative. I have here a letter from a member of the Royal Geographical Society complaining that they are exposing some thousands of feet of negative film in a pictorial record of the ascent of Mount Everest, and they are going to be compelled, when they bring it back to this country, to pay 5d. on every foot of that negative which they have exposed. The possibility is that, out of the many thousands of feet which they will actually expose, only a few thousand feet will really be worth anything. Owing to climatic conditions many thousands of feet of negative will be exposed which will be valueless. Nevertheless, before the film is developed, before a print is taken from it to show whether it is any good at all, they have to pay 5d. a foot. They have already paid a third of a penny on the raw stock, because they have taken the film from this country with them for this purpose, and they have to pay an additional 5d. per foot on the amount of negative they expose. Does the Minister of Education think it is helpful to education that a film of such a description should be subject to a duty of that sort—not only the actual amount of film which is of value, but on the whole of the film exposed, whether it is good, bad, or indifferent? Is that the way he is endeavouring to encourage education? He is, of course, a Free Trader who is naturally opposed to these duties, leaving education out of the question altogether. I have a second complaint from the same source—the Royal Geographical Society—in regard to one of their members who
has just come back from East Africa with a large amount of film exposed dealing with wild animal life. Again they have to pay 5d. a foot for the whole of the film, whether they use it or not.
Let us leave the educational aspect out of the question and come down to the commercial effect of this on British production. Probably 90 per cent. of the films shown in this country are of foreign origin, and it is desirable that there should be more films of British production. What happens? I want to produce a film in this country, and I want a scene laid somewhere on the Continent—some historical event which occurs in the story I am trying to depict. I take my actors, artists and camera men over to France or Italy or wherever it may be, and there I expose several thousands of feet of film, out of which I shall probably want, when I come to put my story together in picture form, two or three hundred feet. On every foot T have exposed in that foreign country I have to pay a duty of 5d. when I bring it back here. That is the way the Government are encouraging British film production, struggling to compete with the Americans, Germans, Italians, and other people. The British producer is hampered sufficiently by other causes. This 5d. a foot on the negative which he exposes in order to give a correct historical account of any story he is trying to portray is a burden which brings no revenue worth mentioning to the Exchequer, but which seriously hampers the industry. I am sure if the Solicitor-General or the Chancellor of the Exchequer were to examine the matter carefully, or refer it to their experts for advice, they would instantly agree to the repeal of this portion of the duty affecting film production.

Mr. REMER: I cannot follow the hon. Member with reference to the films of Mount Everest. As I understand the position, they will come under Imperial Preference, and therefore will not be liable to any duty whatever. [Interruption.]

Sir L. SCOTT: There is a preference.

Sir W. BARTON: Will they come in free of duty?

Mr. REMER: I understand that they come in from any part of the British Empire free of tax.

Mr. KILEY: Surely the Solicitor-General is wrong. There is undoubtedly a tax.

Sir L. SCOTT: I did not say there is no tax; I said there is a preference.

Mr. REMER: The tax is a diminutive one.

Mr. RENDALL: It is a third of the whole tax.

Mr. REMER: I deplore very strongly that we have not taken our courage in both hands and realised what are not only the financial needs, but also the economical needs of the country. I should like to supplement what the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) has said with reference to motor cars. He said the reason why this tax is diminishing is because these goods are being made in this country, and are in that way causing less unemployment amongst our people. Before the War nearly all the Ford cars were made in America, but they are to-day being made at Trafford Park and are employing 2,000 workmen. I have been in that works within the last ten days and it is a most amazing sight. I wish every hon. Member could go and see those works, and I am sure it would very soon cure them of the fallacies of some of the Free Trade speeches we have heard opposite. It is not that works only. We have in Stockport the works of the Willy's Overland, which have been put up quite recently since this tax came into operation, and has resulted in very considerable employment for the people of this country. The hon. Member for Batley (Mr. France) asked why other industries are not treated in the same way? I quite agree. Why cannot we have other industries—

The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member must confine himself to the industries mentioned in the Finance Act, 1915.

Mr. REMER: Hon. Members say that this is the thin end of the wedge of Protection. That is the one consideration in their minds, and not what is best or what is good for their country. The only thing they think about is whether their petty, foolish, economic views are being considered.

10.0 P.M.

Dr. MURRAY: I am sure that the only person in the Committee who has listened with pleasure to the speech of the hon.
Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) is the Solicitor-General, and even the Solocitor-General must have said, "Save me from my hon. Friend." Therefore, there is no need for me to follow the hon. Member in his character as a wild man of the woods. The perpetuation of this tax is, in substance, a breach of faith. There is no doubt that pledges were given over and over again that these taxes were temporary in character and would net be imposed after the War. Mr. McKenna, the right hon. Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Bonar Law), and the late Secretary of State for India (Mr. Montagu), in view of the almost vicious challenges of the present Minister of Health, said that these taxes could not be imposed after the War. On that occasion the present Minister of Health was in the true line of the prophets. He said:
I must warn him that the retaking of a trench once evacuated results in very heavy casualties, and you do not get back the same position.
He did not believe in the temporary character of these duties. He also said:
Some people seem to think that if we ant Protection we shall get rid of it soon. Do not let these vested interests get their snout into your dinner plate. Do not let them feel how easy it is to become wealthy"—
and here I think there must have been a tear in his voice—
at the expense of the poor people in this country. Every man who benefits from a tariff is a robber.
The trouble I have with the Chancellor of the Exchequer is that he does not read his colleagues' speeches. I drew attention to a speech of the Prime Minister, but I do not think the right hon. Gentle-man had ever read it. Now I am drawing attention to a speech of his colleague the Minister of Health, and he will not read it, and he does not listen to me. How these Coalition representatives love one another I heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer say the other day that he was not a Protectionist Chancellor. What amazes me about the right hon. Gentleman and other right hon. Gentlemen on the Government Bench is how often they change their name. When one thing becomes unpopular then they give it a fresh name. When Protection is unpopular, then become Tariff Reformers. When Tariff Reform is unpopu-
lar, they become Imperial Preference men. They change their names as often as the Germans changed their names during the War. The right hon. Gentleman went to Genoa to preach Free Trade.

Sir R. HORNE: indicated dissent.

Dr. MURRAY: Well, the Secretary to to Department of Overseas Trade went to preach it for the right hon. Gentleman. He preached untrammelled trade at Genoa, with his hands dripping with the blood of Free Trade in this country. No wonder that people in other parts of the world are surprised and amazed at our attitude—the Bible and rum in Africa, the Gospel and opium in China, Protection under the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and Free Trade at Genoa. With respect to the duty on motor cars, I maintain that motor cars are not a luxury. In many parts of the country they are an absolute necessity for ordinary travel, where you have no trains and where the Chancellor of the Exchequer refuses to assist people who are depending upon coastal traffic. With respect to clocks, how can we tell Summer Time if we have no clocks? A clock is a necessity of the home. Why perpetuate this tax upon clocks? I protest against the attempt of the Government to perpetuate what was imposed in 1915 as a temporary tax. I think that the Minister of Health was right, and that once you impose a tax of this kind it is very difficult to get rid of it. The Free Trade position is being attacked in various directions, of which the Safeguarding of Industries Act represents one, and those who, like my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton (Sir W. Edge), believe in Free Trade as the basis of our fiscal system, should set to work immediately to repel these attacks or the Free Trade citadel will be entirely captured.

Mr. KILEY: The principal argument in favour of these duties which we have had to-night is that the country cannot afford at this moment to forego any possible revenue. That was the argument advanced 12 months ago and two years ago, but before that we were told, "It is far too soon to interfere with these duties, let us wait and see how matters develop." Therefore they have remained despite the undertaking by various Ministers that these taxes were of a temporary nature, and would on no ac-
count be continued after the War. Now we are told that the Government cannot forego this source of revenue, and I suppose that that will be the statement next year if the same Gentlemen occupy the Treasury Bench. In 1918 the Government appointed numerous Committees on reconstruction, with the object of ascertaining what could be done to put this country in a state of efficiency after the War. Various recommendations were made. Very few of them were acted upon. One of the facts established clearly was that cheap transit was an essential. Yet we have proceeded to make it almost impossible for low grade cars to be in use in this country, under the mistaken idea that if you have a cheap motor-car you are preventing the trade in motor-cars in this country.
Never was there a greater delusion. We have in this country, fortunately, established a reputation for motor-cars whose fame is known through the length and breadth of the world, but it is not every person who can afford to buy these expensive British cars. If you can put people with a moderate income in the way of buying a cheaper car, that will lead to the development and encouragement of the home industry in connection with those cars which we can make with advantage and with profit to ourselves. But by putting a tariff on the low-priced cars, which we cannot make in this country with the same advantage as other countries, we thereby restrict the use of cars. In this country there is one car for every 70 of the population and in the United States there is one for every 80 persons. One of the reasons for this difference is the price of cars in this country. Therefore what should be done is to get as many cheap cars as possible, because there is room for them, and by encouraging the use of low-grade cars you tend to increase the use of the more expensive cars. The actual yield from imported motor cars in this country was last year, according to figures supplied by the Government, £322,000. Far more interesting and significant is the fact that the yield on parts of cars for manufacturing and for repairs amounted to no less than £388,000. That is a large sum derived from parts of cars which are used by our manufacturers in this country, and by imposing that tax we are injuring the development of trade at home. In the preceding year the amount received
on imports of cars was very much greater It was not possible to get cars in this country at a reasonable figure and therefore a vast influx of cars took place. But there was no market for these cars in this country and many of them were re-exported and therefore the yield was not maintained.
With regard to accessories there appear to be a great many difficulties raised by the Customs Authorities in the collection of the duties. It is stated that no duty is levied on vehicles of a commercial character. I have read of a case in the Press during the last few days in which a commercial car was imported. It was sold two or three times and eventually found its way to a purchaser who removed the commercial body and put a private body on the car, and he was prosecuted by the authorities and had to pay a fine for using that kind of car. What an absurd position for the Customs Authorities to be in! If a person declares, when the car is coming in, that he intends to use it for commercial purposes he escapes the tax, but if he uses it for any other purpose he must pay the tax. I would suggest to the Chancellor that, in order to secure uniformity, he should put a tax on in all cases and thus prevent foolishness of this kind. As a further illustration of what happens I may refer to a letter from one of my constituents. He writes to the Customs Authorities:
We are in receipt of your communication and beg to enter our strong protest against the most unwarrantable delay in causing delivery of the petrol tank. The consignment arrived in London on the 14th. We wrote you on the 21st in response to your complaint that this tractor contained a magneto on which duty had not been paid, and what is the use of you saying that there is no tax on commercial vehicles when you are holding up a car which contains a magneto on which you are demanding the duty?
He goes on to say:
Despite our offer to pay a deposit, you refused to let us take the vehicle away, and we enter a very strong protest against this method.
There is considerable inequality in the bearing of these taxes. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might well consider whether he should not revise the taxes or sweep them away. If he must have revenue, there are other ways of getting it without inflicting hardship on industry or upon the use of an article that is a neces-
sity. Let him put a duty on diamonds and pearls and other luxuries of that kind. That would do very little injury to any class of the community. Then there is the duty on watches and clocks. Low-grade watches are made chiefly in Switzerland. They have to pay the tax. If a wealthy person wants to buy a watch he naturally makes his purchase in this country, and no duty is paid. It comes to this: If a boy wants a watch when he is starting in life, the Chancellor of the Exchequer considers it appropriate to raise revenue on the watch. But the boy's employer, who perhaps would buy a 50-guinea gold watch is not troubled to pay a tax. The same process goes on in regard to clocks. A workman requires a cheap clock if he is to get to his work in time. That kind of clock is not manufactured in this country, but abroad, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer levies a duty on it. When the workman's clock or the boy's watch gets damaged and a part has to be replaced, a tax of 33⅓ per cent. is put upon the article required. This is what is known as scientific tariff making. It is about time that the Chancellor of the Exchequer appointed a Committee to go into details, and to sweep away all taxes now charged on parts which are used for remanufacturing purposes, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not prepared to sweep away the taxes on the completed articles.

Sir DONALD MACLEAN: I think the Committee ought to have an answer from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the interesting and able speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for West Leyton (Mr. Newbould). I refer more particularly to the part of his speech in which he referred to British companies of actors and actresses, with machinists and operators, going to the Continent to produce a film for the sole purpose of exhibition in this country. As I understood my hon. Friend's statement, that film, although produced entirely by British artists and operators, is subject to exactly the same duty as a film produced by Germans, Frenchmen or Italians. It seems to me that case requires answering. At any rate, we should have an understanding that it will be taken into consideration before the Report stage to see if it is possible to deal with the point. Regarding the film of Mount Everest., surely that is a case in which the Department should have power to allow a film
to come in without any duty whatever. There should be power in the hands of the authorities to admit free of any tax a purely British production, which is a powerful competitor with foreign films, and the only objection to which is that it may have been produced on foreign soil. The present state of affairs in this respect should not continue to exist, and I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will take the subject into consideration before the Report stage.

Sir R. HORNE: I regret I did not hear the main portion of the speech of the hon.-Member for West Leyton (Mr. Newbould). I only heard a part of it and from the statement just made, it would appear that I only imperfectly apprehended it. I understood the complaint of the hon. Member was, that with regard to the Mount Everest film, they were bound to pay the duty upon the film as produced, although in point of fact they might not have desired to use it in the shape in which they had paid duty upon it. I took up that matter at once and learned, in point of fact, that the duty is only paid upon the film when it is taken out of bond. Prior to that being done, either they may take the film altogether or excise any portion of it which they do not wish subsequently to produce. That, I understood, was the gravamen of the charge and to that extent the reply is as I have given it. I think, with my right hon. Friend, that where it is disclosed that the production of a film is exclusively British, that it is made of British material and constructed by British artists, a case might then arise, in which some alleviation could take place. In such circumstances, I am sure, there would be no desire on the part of the British Government to exact a duty on a film so produced as if it were the production of a foreign firm. I certainly am very willing to take such a case into consideration. I am also quite ready to assure the Committee that in relation to such a film as that of the expedition to Mount Everest, I think there should be power—although the House is not very ready to grant discretionary powers to Government Departments—there should be some method by which a particular exception might be made where, in truth, the whole production is British. Undoubtedly the spirit of the Clause is not to entrap the
British producer or do anything detrimental to the encouragement of British productions, but only to exact from the foreign producer the duty Which it has been thought well in the past to charge him. I shall be very glad before the Report stage to take into account what the right hon. Gentleman has said and give the best consideration to the possibilities of relief.

Major M. WOOD: I would like the. Committee to remember that when these duties were first proposed, it was in an overwhelmingly Free Trade House of Commons, and naturally the great majority of Members of that House were very afraid that these duties would be continued after the War. Protest after protest was made in the House, and the House only assented to them on a definite assurance being given by the Government of the day, and particularly by those who were known to hold strong Protectionist opinions. In particular, I would like to draw the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his colleagues to what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Bonar Law) on the 29th September, 1915. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will listen to these words—
Duties of this kind would never be continued under any circumstances when the War was over."—[OFFICIAT, REPORT, 29th September, 1915; col. 913, Vol. 74.]
I say that that is a definite pledge given to the House of Commons and to the country that these duties would not be continued. Why is the right hon. Gentleman, on behalf of his colleagues, coming forward and asking the House of Commons to assent to these duties when we were given a definite assurance that they would never do anything of the kind? There is a pledge as definite as it is possible for a pledge to be given. It was given by the right hon. Member for Central Glasgow when he was a Member of the Government. He committed, therefore, all the right hon. Gentlemen who are sitting on that bench at the present time and the Government, and to continue these duties to-day is a breach of faith. I would like the Chancellor of the Exchequer to face these facts, which, to say the least of it, require an answer.

Sir R. HORNE: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman say that he will be hound by all that we do on this Bench to-day?

Major M. WOOD: I do not think that is an answer to the point I have made. [Laughter.] I do not follow the reason for the merriment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This is, after all, a very serious matter, because it is a pledge, as I say, given by a. right hon. Gentleman on behalf of the Government, and it was on the faith of that pledge that these duties were assented to. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health particularly took a lead in opposing these duties, for the very reason for which we are opposing them now, and it is quite obvious that what he feared has come true. He is now a Member of the Government, of course, and we cannot get his real views on the subject, but we are entitled to put this forward, and ask for a reasoned explanation, not merely from the right hon. Gentleman, because, of course, he was not in the Government at that time, but there are some there who were, and the Prime Minister in particular ought to come here and defend these duties, and explain why he has broken faith, not only with the House of Commons, but with the country as a whole.

Mr. WATERSON: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the course of his reply to my hon. Friend the Member for West Leyton (Mr. Newbould), admitted that he had not had the privilege of hearing the whole of his speech, neither did my right hon. Friend the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean), who put the question to the Chancellor, and as one who has sat continually through the Debate and who heard that speech. I feel disposed to put the matter a little more clearly. The fact was that, if actors or actresses are taken out of this country, with the raw material, with the operators, with the machinery, and with everything that is essential for the making of a film, when that film is returned to this country a duty is paid on it at the rate of 5d. per foot, but if 1,000 feet of film are produced, and only 250 feet are required, those in authority are compelled by the present Regulations to charge on the number of feet brought into this country, and I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is now prepared to charge
this duty according to the number of feet that are required for the purpose of putting on the pictures in the various parts of the United Kingdom, and that that part of the film which is not used will be liberated from the duty. That is the point put by my hon. Friend the Member for West Leyton, which. I understand, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is prepared to reconsider on Report. I trust, at any rate, something will be done in that direction, and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer can see his way clear, I am prepared to recognise the compromise that has been made, in the hope that the day is not far distant when the duty in is entirety will be abolished.
In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer), I would like him to remember that we are as much sincere and honest about the future of the country as he is. We claim to have an interest in the country of our birth, and to be as much concerned as he is in the welfare of our country. It does not come with the greatest amount of courtesy for hon. Members to lecture those in opposition simply because they hold diametrically opposite political views from themselves. It is because we are honest, and are anxious to put our views for the good of the country that we are in opposition. I say this in the hope that we shall not receive in future the chastisement which is so characteristic a part of the hon. Member's speeches. I trust that, so far as the economic position is concerned, the right hon. Gentleman will view it from that point of view, seeing the unemployment in our country which is clue to many of these obnoxious duties that have been operating for some time. It is to be noted that a commercial vehicle which has been made abroad and is fit for running, when brought into this country is exempt from tax, but any particular portion of a commercial vehicle has to have a duty paid on it. In the interest of employment one would have thought that if there-is any advantage, it would be far more advantageous to the Government to allow the parts of a commercial vehicle to come in exempt, and to put a duty on the commercial vehicle, because it would, at any rate, increase employment. People who to-day are in the fortunate position of having plenty of money are prepared to buy a
very good car, probably a Rolls-Royce or something of that description, but the middle-classes, who are not so fortunately placed, the ordinary medical fraternity and the ordinary business men, are compelled to have a common car, and when that common car is imported into this country, this duty is applied. I hope that the Government will shortly see that the pledges given in this House on these duties will be redeemed. Without the shadow of a doubt when these duties were imposed they were only imposed for the period of the War, and for that period only. Upon these benches we feel that the time is now opportune, yea, it is more than opportune that they shall be removed from the Statute Book in order to make and increase employment in our country.
An illustration was given by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) about an engineering works at Trafford Park working full time. This was to support his argument. If hon. Members are going to take the general position and be satisfied with it simply because one works is closed and another is working full time, and think that is the whole situation, then we are in a false position, because, as a matter of fact, I could single out an engineering works in the country to-day which has been closed down for many months, and which to a large extent is responsible for the engineering dispute. Men in the engineering world knew perfectly well there were thousands of their comrades upon the streets while others were working overtime. Nevertheless we have found that in some parts of the country the engineering trade was increasing in one works while in many other works unemployment was great. We should remove these import duties and this would have a tendency to increase employment and bring greater prosperity to our trade.

Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: For a few moments I desire only to refer to the interruption of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Aberdeen (Major M. Wood) when he asked him whether he suggested that the Government of today were to be bound by the pledges mentioned. I do suggest the Government are bound, and I suggest they are bound both by reason of the composition of the Government when the pledges were made, and the composition of the Government
now. Above all, they are bound because the House of Commons at that time permitted the imposition of these- duties by reason of their declarations upon which we on this side stand at this moment. We bring forward these quotations such as those given from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Bonar Law) as showing the intention at that time. Our whole case is this: We are not saying on this side that had we been in the House at that time we should not have supported the imposition of these duties, We do not question the wisdom of it having been done, but we say that it is a gross betrayal that it should be done now, and we say this further. If the Government would frankly say that the Free Trade position has been abandoned and that the circumstances in which these duties were imposed exists to-day, and that for the same reasons of national importance and urgency they are taking the action they are, we should support them to-day as then, and our position would be totally different.
The fact, however, is the Chancellor of the Exchequer knows that every Protectionist in this country is rejoicing in the extension of these duties, like my hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Mr. G. Terrell), who now has a real smile on his face after having been a sad man for three years. The system is becoming more and more profoundly ingrained and engrafted into our fiscal system. Every Protectionist gets up in this House and supports these proposals by the same arguments that were used before the election of 1906. My hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham used the same arguments. They are still as bad as they were, and there is the same chance of betrayal. The whole question is not being discussed upon its merits. We are being "pulled," and the country is being "pulled." There is a word used very frequently by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson), and it is the word "humbug." This proposal of the Government is real humbug, and I do not know how hon. Members opposite can support the retention of these duties without prejudicing their Free Trade position. Commercial firms are- looking more and more to the Government to know what they are going to do in regard to these tariffs. Simply for the sake of a paltry £1,500,000 we are placing a tax
four years after the Armistice on motor cars, clocks, watches and musical instruments, and there is not the slightest justification for them except on Protectionist grounds.

Sir G. YOUNGER: I do not in any way wish to deal with the question of these duties, but I want to ask hon. Members opposite if they have forgotten that there has been a general election since 1915, and that there was a joint manifesto issued by the Prime Minister and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Bonar Law).

Mr. FOOT: The most interesting point in the Debate seems to be whether we have forgotten that an election has taken place since 1915 and whether anything was said at the last election to make it clear to the people that their votes would be used to support proposals such as those which are now before the Committee. I do not think that even in Ayr Burghs there would be found any support for such a lopsided system of Protection as this Bill contains. The Solicitor-General asked us not to approach this question from the standpoint of abstract economists, although nearly every speech from hon. Members opposite has been based on purely Protectionist principles. Probably this is the first occasion that any Prime Minister has ever defended any particular tax because of its Protective effects. These duties lead us to the slippery slope of Protection, and by accepting these proposals so many years after the War we are in fact forgetting the very strong advice given by the Prime Minister who some years ago told us that we should not begin with Protection at all, because the danger was so great that if we once began we should not be able to stop.
I am at a disadvantage in as much as I was not able to hear the discussion that took place in 1915, but I have done all I can to refresh my memory of what I read in the newspapers at that time, and I think those who sit on the opposite side of the House will agree that when these taxes were imposed they were intended to be purely temporary. There was no difference on any side of the House as to that. It was also agreed that they were imposed to meet an abnormal situation, and a definite assurance was
given that when the War was over they would be taken off. To-day they have been defended by the Solicitor-General on grounds which I think the hon. Gentleman was sorry subsequently he had adopted. But he was only repeating what was said in the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had asked whether in the case of the motor car industry, which for three years had been living from hand to mouth, which was as hard hit as any industry in this country, and which employing thousands of hands less than two years previously, that the time to get rid of a duty of 33⅓ per cent. on cars which were luxury cars of the people? The only suggestion he (Mr. Foot) had to make in reply to that was he could understand the position taken up by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer), which was that of an honest Protectionist; he could understand the position taken up by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), which was that of an honest Protectionist; hut he could not understand the attitude of those who had opposed this taxation in the past. They seemed to have put their Free Trade principles in cold storage. It was perfectly open for the rest to advocate these taxes, but how support could be given to them by those whose whole political life had been opposed to Protection was one of those things which no ordinary man could understand. In the Debate to which reference had been made the present Minister of Health made this quite clear. In opposing the duties, he said:
This is Protection you are introducing into the Budget for the first time for many years—duties on the import of goods which are also manufactured in this country without corresponding Excise duties. That is Protection. These duties are Protection as far as they go…You are asking us to vote for a protective tariff on these articles.
Further on the right hon. Gentleman complained very bitterly about the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who introduced these taxes, and said:
The right hon. Gentleman perhaps no longer receives those communications which he used to get as Secretary of the Free Trade Union"—
I believe the Minister of Health was Treasurer of that Union—and he, as Treasurer, was complaining that the
Secretary of the Free Trade Union had fallen from fiscal grace, for he said:
The right hon. Gentleman perhaps no longer receives those communications which he used to get as Secretary of the Free Trade Union. If he did so he would see how many of those who formerly admired and adored him are to-day regarding his action with pain at heart.
We have only to ask the question whether the Treasurer of the Free Trade Union—the Minister of Health—regards with pain and with a bleeding heart the fall from grace of the former Secretary of the Free Trade Union or if he has got over the pain at heart, and what position he is going to take as far as the Division tonight is concerned. There is a clear case for Protection if you apply it to all your needy industries, there is no case at all for a haphazard system of Protection such as these taxes propose. I suggest that this is an acid test as to whether those who have been for so many years, and who have appealed on so many platforms to the people of this country as Free Traders, are after all going to walk meekly into the Potectionist Lobby in support of proposals which have had their support to-day from those people who are Protectionists in this House.

Mr. NEWBOULD: I understand that during my temporary absence from the Committee the Chancellor of the Exchequer contradicted a statement I had previously made. I merely rise for a second time to re-affirm the statement I then made. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that in the event of a British firm exposing a film abroad and bringing it back to this country they only took out of bond and paid duty on the parts they required. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had any knowledge at all about the industry he would realise how absurd that statement was. How do they know what they require until they have taken it to their own factory and developed it? Then after they have developed it, how do they know what they require until they have printed it? After they have printed it, how do they know what they require until they have put it together with other parts of the film to he produced in this country? Then after they have done that and put it together in the film for a half-a-dozen times it is edited and re-edited, and parts cut out, until they have satisfied the author. I have served under an author who revised
his proofs half-a-dozen times, and who took out chunks and put chunks back. It. is equally the same thing in editing a film.
The first suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that British firms only take out of bond and pay duty on the parts they require, is absurd, and the second suggestion that they can develop films in bond and then decide what they require is equally absurd. First of all, we cannot find equipment sufficiently complete to risk the development of the film in bond. The development of the film is a very difficult and highly technical process. You want a change in the chemicals used from moment to moment. You take small quantities out and make tests, and alter the composition of the chemicals, and the whole thing cannot possibly be done in bond. I re-assert the statement—that we do, in fact, pay on many thousands of feet which we do not ultimately use or require.

Sir R. HORNE: I think the hon. Gentleman has rather overstated what I ventured to say—

Mr. NEWBOULD: I apologise if I have overstated it, but I was unfortunately out for a few minutes, and heard only the latter portion.

Sir R. HORNE: Of course, I accept what my hon. Friend says in regard to the trade account of what actually takes place. I did not venture to do more than tell the Committee what had been the information I had gleaned, of course very cursorily, in the interval after the sentences which I chanced to hear of my hon. Friend's speech. I did not make any assertion, but I promised that I would try and look into the whole matter. I did not in any way proceed to give a refutation I never attempted to do anything of the kind, of what my hon. Friend has said.

Mr. N. MACLEAN: I merely want to put a question to the hon. Baronet the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger). He reminded Members on this side of the Committee, with reference to the manifesto which was issued just before the last General Election, that the principal thing in that manifesto was a pledge to do what has been proposed by the Government, and objected to by hon.
Members on this side of the Committee. I should like to ask the hon. Baronet whether the principal items in that manifesto were not the importation, free of duty, of two things, the one a German indemnity, and the other the present ex-Kaiser, to be tried in London? Neither of these pledges has been kept. Why, then, is it said that you must keep the other pledge, which was placed in a far away corner of the manifesto, which, I have no doubt, the hon. Baronet drew up for the leaders of his party?

Sir G. YOUNGER: There was no such pledge in any part of the manifesto.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I hoped that we were going to have a speech from the hon. Baronet. I am disappointed, and Will certainly give way to him if he rises. His all too rare interventions in Debate are very valuable. We all, at any rate, respect the straightforward attitude that he takes up. I should like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider a very hard case that is affecting sellers of motor-cars imported from America into this country. It occurs fairly frequently that American visitors to this country wish to buy American ears here, use them for a few weeks, and take them back to America, but they find that they have to pay the full duty. [Interruption.] It may sound very amusing, but this is what arises in practice, and I have here particulars of an actual case. An American visiting England wanted to buy a car worth about £1,200, to use it for three weeks in this country, to tour the Continent, and then to take it back to America; but he found that he could not get a refund of the duty at the end of his three weeks' use of the car here. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!" and "Let him buy an English car!"] If hon. Members will have a little patience, I will tell them what happened. He was able to buy the car in Holland, where the duty is only 5 per cent., and he bought the car there and brought it here as a tourist, paying no duty. The result was that the British importing house lost the order, and I hope hon. Gentlemen will cheer that. [Interruption.] That is a very good example of a little thing that is hitting our people. It is a case in which the right hon. Gen-
tleman, without departing from his sacred principles of Protection, which please him and his followers so much, could make arrangements for a rebate to be allowed, and I would ask him to consult his advisers as to this particular case, in which it was only intended that the car should be used for touring purposes for about three weeks in this country.
11.0 P.M.
To hear speeches of hon. and right hon. Gentleman in this Chamber, and then to read their written statements in newspapers outside, is sometimes very diverting. In connection with these duties and the whole system of protection which is so much blessed by the present Government, I would draw attention to an article written by the hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Department of Overseas Trade, in the "Sunday Times" of 11th June, in which he goes for this whole policy of protection root and branch. It is mentioned of him that, after entering Parliament in 1918, his political career has been unusually rapid and brilliant—as I can agree—and that his Ministerial career can only be regarded as having just begun. That is a remark which, I hope, refers to no other of his colleagues, whose Ministerial careers, I hope, are at an end, or about to be ended at the next Election. I hope, however, that the remark is true in regard to him, because of the admirable sentiments which he, a Member of the Government, is able to write—not at eleven o'clock at night, but, I suppose, sitting in his comfortable office at the Department, and using Government paper. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Oh, yes. This is a manifesto on our policy at The Hague, and it ought to be written in Government time. It is a very good policy, if only the Government would follow it at home. This is what he says:
The abandonment of the mischievous notion that the ideal of nationality is to be economically self-sufficing.
A Coalitionist, a Unionist, a Member of the Government, one of the rising band of Ministerialists whose career has only just begun!
The realisation that trade is a. mutually profitable process of exchange and that no one gains by policies of obstruction and exclusiveness; all this has become a working part of the European mind before real recovery from the War is brought within sight.
This estimable Gentleman is over at The Hague now, and he is being stabbed in the back by his chief, his leader, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Prime Minister himself. While he is laying down these admirable precepts to the 38 or so nations gathered together at The Hague, imploring them, as was done at Genoa, to cast down their tariff walls, to remove their system of export licences and all the rest of it and all the other obstructions to commerce, here we are, in order to please the hon. Baronet and his phalanx of followers, in order to answer the crack of the whip wielded by the hon. Baronet behind him they are stabbing these delegates at The Hague in the bank. This system of Protectionist policy is absolutely opposed to the admirable sentiments I have read out, which are laid down in writing in the cold pages of the "Sunday Times" by the Secretary to the Department of Overseas Trade. So it goes on. I could turn up the Prime Minister's speeches where he talks about nationalism and the lack of neighbourliness and Christian charity amongst the nations, refusing to take each other's goods, refusing to understand that they are one economic whole. What is the use of it? After three years you find out our Finance Bill, brought in by this iniquitous Government contains this iniquitous manifestation of a ridiculous and foolish policy. If there is one thing we should have learnt by the events of the last few years, it is that nations are interdependent, and that, above all, for a great maritime island power absolutely dependent for our life on oversell trade and commerce to put these artificial restrictions in the way of trade and commerce is ridiculous, foolish and absurd in every way. I

despair of this Government, and so I believe does the democracy of these islands. Let them dissolve and take the opinion of the people before they proceed further with this ruinous, outworn and ridiculous policy.

Mr. T. THOMSON: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in reply to the hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Newbould), has promised to consider one or two points before the Report stage. I want to put one or two other cases in the hope that he will consider them. Why has the 2s. toy bag-pipe, which comes from our ally France, to pay duty, while the 2s. mouth organ from our late enemies comes in free. These facts were given in answer by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. Surely the matter is worthy of consideration because it is bringing the policy into disrepute. It is unworthy of a commercial nation of our standing to make this absurd difference. Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it somewhat undignified that children's toys should be taxed in order to pander to the Protectionist instincts of a section of the Coalition? Perhaps he will tell us how long these Protectionist taxes will be continued. If certain manufactures are to have a preference this year why should not that be extended to other manufacturers? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us what is the Government's settled policy, whether it is to be a Protectionist policy or a bastard Free Trade policy so that the country will be able to decide which policy to follow.

Question put, "That the words 'The new import duties' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 227; Noes, 93.

Division No. 148.]
AYES.
[11.8 p.m.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-
Clough, Sir Robert


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Coats, Sir Stuart


Armstrong, Henry Bruce
Brassey, H. L. C.
Cobb, Sir Cyril


Atkey, A. R.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.


Baird, Sir John Lawrence
Briggs, Harold
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Broad, Thomas Tucker
Conway, Sir W. Martin


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)
Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)


Banner, Sir John S. Harmood
Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.
Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)


Barlow, Sir Montague
Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.


Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)
Bull, RI. Hon. Sir William James
Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)
Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)


Barnston, Major Harry
Butcher, Sir John George
Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Doyle, N. Grattan


Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.
Carr, W. Theodore
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring


Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell
Casey, T. W.
Edgar, Clifford B.


Betterton, Henry B.
Cautley, Henry Strother
Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)


Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)


Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)
Eiveden, Viscount


Blake, Sir Francis Douglas
Churchman, Sir Arthur
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith


Borwick, Major G. O.
Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
Evans, Ernest


Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.
Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk, George
Rodger, A. K.


Falcon, Captain Michael
Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Kidd, James
Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund


Fell, Sir Arthur
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.
Lane-Fox, G. R.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur


Flannery, Sir James Fortescue
Lindsay, William Arthur
Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)


Ford, Patrick Johnston
Lloyd, George Butler
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Foreman, Sir Henry
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Seddon, J. A.


Forestier-Walker, L.
Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)
Shaw, William T. (Forfar)


Forrest, Walter
Lorden, John William
Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on.T.)


Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Loseby, Captain C. E.
Simm, M. T.


Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Frece, Sir Walter de
Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)
Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander


Fremantle-Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)
Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)


Ganzoni, Sir John
Macleod, J. Mackintosh
Starkey, Captain John Ralph


Gee, Captain Robert
Macnaghten, Sir Malcolm
Steel, Major S. Strang


Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Sturrock, J. Leng


Gilbert, James Daniel
Manville, Edward
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John
Marriott, John Arthur Ransome
Sugden, W. H.


Glyn, Major Ralph
Middlebrook, Sir William
Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.


Goff, Sir R. Park
Mitchell, Sir William Lane
Sutherland, Sir William


Gould, James C.
Molson, Major John Elsdale
Taylor, J.


Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)


Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Greig, Colonel Sir James William
Morrison, Hugh
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)


Grenfell, Edward Charles
Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.
Townley, Maximilian G.


Gretton, Colonel John
Murchison, C. K.
Tryon, Major George Clement


Gritten. W. G. Howard
Murray, Rt. Hon. C. D. (Edinburgh)
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Murray, John (Leeds, West)
Vickers, Douglas


Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Neal, Arthur
Walters. Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor


Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l, W. D'by)
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)


Hamilton, Major Sir C. G. C.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)


Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Nicholson. William G. (Petersfield)
Waring, Major Walter


Henderson, Lt.-Col. V. L. (Tradeston)
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.
Warren, Sir Alfred H.


Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Parker, James
Williams, C. (Tavistock)


Hills, Major John Waller
Pearce, Sir William
Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud


Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.
Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike
Wilson, Col. M. I. (Richmond)


Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Peel. Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)
Windsor, Viscount


Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Winfrey, Sir Richard


Hood, Sir Joseph
Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chaster, City)
Winterton, Earl


Hope, Sir H.(Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.)
Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles
Wise, Frederick


Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Wolmer, Viscount


Hopkins, John W. W.
Poison, Sir Thomas A.
Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)


Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Pratt, John William
Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


Howard, Major S. G.
Prescott, Major Sir W. H.
Woolcock, William James U.


Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Worsfold, T. Cato


Hurd, Percy A.
Reid, D. D.
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Remer, J. R.
Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)


James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Younger, Sir George


Jephcott, A. R.
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)



Jodrell, Neville Paul
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Johnson, Sir Stanley
Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.


Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Robinson. Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)
McCurdy.


NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Gillis, William
Mallalieu, Frederick William


Ammon, Charles George
Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central).
Mills, John Edmund


Banton, George
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Mosley, Oswald


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Grundy, T. W.
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)


Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)
Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)
Murray, Dr. D, (Inverness & Rose)


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Hall, F. (York. W.R., Normanton)
Naylor, Thomas Ellis


Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
Hayday, Arthur
Newbould, Alfred Ernest


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Hayward, Evan
Raffan, Peter Wilson


Bramsdon, Sir Thomas
Henderson. Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Rendall, Athelstan


Briant, Frank
Hinds, John
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)


Bromfield, William
Hirst, G. H.
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Robertson, John


Cairns, John
Holmes, J. Stanley
Rose, Frank H.


Cape, Thomas
John, William (Rhondda. West)
Royce, William Stapleton


Carter. W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Sexton, James


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)


Collins. Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Kennedy, Thomas
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)
Kiley, James Daniel
Sitch, Charles H.


Davies, David (Montgomery)
Lawson, John James
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lunn, William
Spencer, George A.


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Lyle-Samuel, Alexander
Spoor, B. G.


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Foot, Isaac
Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(Midlothian)
Sutton, John Edward


Galbraith, Samuel
MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Swan, J. E.




Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)
Waterson, A. E.
Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)


Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.
Wintringham, Margaret


Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
White, Charles F. (Derby. Western)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Tillett, Benjamin
Wignall, James



Wallace, J.
Williams, Cal. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)
Wilson, James (Dudley)
Major Barnes and Mr. T. Thomson.

Amendment proposed: After the word "duties" ["The new import duties and the additional"] insert the words:
except tile duties on motor cars, including motor bicycles and motor tricycles, and on accessories and component parts of motor

cars, motor bicycles, and motor tricycles, other than tyros."—[Major Barnes.]

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 86; Noes, 212.

Division No. 149]
AYES.
[11.20 p.m.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Hinds, John
Sexton, James


Ammon, Charles George
Hirst, G. H.
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Banton, George
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Barker, G, (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hogge, James Myles
Sitch, Charles H.


Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)
Holmes, J. Stanley
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)


Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Spencer, George A.


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Spoor, B. G.


Bramsdon, Sir Thomas
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Bromfield, William
Kennedy, Thomas
Sutton, John Edward


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Swan, J. E.


Cairns, John
Kiley, James Daniel
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Cape, Thomas
Lawson, John James
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)
Lunn, William
Thorne, W. (West Ham. Plaistow)


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Lyle-Samuel, Alexander
Tillett, Benjamin


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)
Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)
Waterson, A. E.


Davies, David (Montgomery)
Mallalieu, Frederick William
Watts-Morgan. Lieut.-Col. D.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Mills, John Edmund
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Mosley, Oswald
White. Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Wignall, James


Foot, Isaac
Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)
Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)


Galbraith, Samuel
Naylor, Thomas Ellis
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Gillis, William
Newbould, Alfred Ernest
Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)
Wintringham, Margaret


Grundy, T. W.
Rae. Sir Henry N.
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Guest, J. (York, W. Hemsworth)
Rattan, Peter Wilson
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Hall, F. (York. W. R., Normanton)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)



Hayday, Arthur
Robertson, John
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Hayward, Evan
Rose, Frank H.
Mr. Kiley and Dr. Murray.


Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Royce, William Stapleton



NOES.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Carr, W. Theodore
Flannery, Sir James Fortescue


Armstrong, Henry Bruce
Casey, T. W.
Ford, Patrick Johnston


Atkey, A. R.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Foreman, Sir Henry


Baird, Sir John Lawrence
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)
Forestier-Walker, L.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Churchman, Sir Arthur
Forrest, Walter


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot


Barlow, Sir Montague
Clough, Sir Robert
Fraser, Major Sir Keith


Barnes Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)
Coats, Sir Stuart
Frece, Sir Walter de


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.


Barnston, Major Harry
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Ganzoni, Sir John


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Gee, Captain Robert


Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.
Conway, Sir W. Martin
Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham


Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell
Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)
Gilbert, James Daniel


Betterton, Henry B.
Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John


Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Glyn, Major Ralph


Blake, Sir Francis Douglas
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Goff, Sir R. Park


Berwick, Major G. O.
Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Gould, James C.


Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-
Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)
Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W,)


Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry
Greig, Colonel Sir James William


Boyd-Carpenter. Major A.
Doyle, N. Grattan
Grenfell, Edward Charles


Brassey, H. L. C.
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Gretton, Colonel John


Breese, Major Charles E.
Edgar, Clifford B.
Gritten, W. G. Howard


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.


Briggs, Harold
Elveden, Viscount
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)


Broad, Thomas Tucker
Evans, Ernest
Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l, W. D'by)


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)
Eyres-Monsell, Corn. Bolton M.
Hamilton, Major Sir C. G. C.


Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.
Falcon, Captain Michael
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Falls, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Fell, Sir Arthur
Henderson, Lt.-Col. V. L. (Tradeston)


Butcher, Sir John George
Fisher, At. Hon. Herbert A. L.
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.


Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.
Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)


Hills, Major John Waller
Murchison, C. K.
Starkey, Captain John Ralph


Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.
Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)
Steel, Major S. Strang


Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Murray, John (Leeds, West)
Sturrock, J. Lung


Hood, Sir Joseph
Neal, Arthur
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn,W.)
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Sugden, W. H.


Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Sutherland, Sir William


Hopkins, John W. W.
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Taylor, J.


Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.
Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)


Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Howard, Major S. G.
Parker, James
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell. (Maryhill)


Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry
Townley, Maximilian G


Hurd, Percy A.
Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike
Tryon, Major George Clement


Inskip, Thomas Walker H.
Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Vickers, Douglas


James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)
Waiters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor


Jephcott, A. R.
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)


Johnson, Sir Stanley
Poison, Sir Thomas A.
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)


Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)


Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George
Pratt, John William
Waring, Major Walter


Kelley, Major Fred(Rotherham)
Prescott, Major Sir W. H.
Warren, Sir Alfred H.


Kidd. James
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


King, Captain Henry Douglas
Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Williams, C. (Tavistock)


Lane-Fox, G. R.
Ramer, J. R.
Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud


Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Lindsay, William Arthur
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Windsor, Viscount


Lloyd, George Butler
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)
Winfrey, Sir Richard


Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)
Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)
Winterton, Earl


Lorden, John William
Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Wise, Frederick


Loseby, Captain C. E.
Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund
Wolmer, Viscount


Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northam)
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur
Worsfold, T. Cato


Macleod, J. Mackintosh
Scott. A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Scott. Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)


Manville, Edward
Seddon, J. A.
Younger, Sir George


Marriott, John Arthur Ransome
Shaw, William T. (Forfar)



Mitchell, Sir William Lane
Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Moison, Major John Elsdale
Simm, M. T.
Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.


Morden, Col. W. Grant
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)
McCurdy.


Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Sprat, Colonel Sir Alexander

Amendment proposed: After the word "duties" ["The new import duties"], to insert the words
except the duties on musical instruments, including gramophones, pianolas, and other similar instruments, and on accessories and component parts of musical instruments and

records and other means of reproducing music."—[Mr. Kiley.]

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 86; Noes, 211.

Division No. 150.]
AYES.
[11.30 p.m.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A (Widnes)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Ammon, Charles George
Hinds, John
Sitch, Charles H.


Banton, George
Hirst, G. H.
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Spencer, George A.


Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)
Hogge, James Myles
Spoor. B. G.


Barton. Sir William (Oldham)
Holmes, J. Stanley
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Sutton, John Edward


Bramsdon, Sir Thomas
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Swan, J. E.


Bromfield, William
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Sykes. Sir Charles (Huddersfield)


Brown, James (Ayr and Elute)
Kennedy, Thomas
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Cairns, John
Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Cape, Thomas
Lawson, John James
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Carter, W. (Nottingham. Mansfield)
Lunn, William
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Tillett, Benjamin


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Mallalieu, Frederick William
Waterson, A. E.


Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)
Mills, John Edmund
Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.


Davies, David (Montgomery)
Mosley, Oswald
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Naylor, Thomas Ellis
Wignall, James


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Newbould, Alfred Ernest
Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)


Font, Isaac
Rae. Sir Henry N.
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Galbraith, Samuel
Raffan, Peter Wilson
Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)


Gills, William
Richardson. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Wintringham, Margaret


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Robertson, John
Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)


Grundy, T. W.
Rose, Frank H.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)
Royce, William Stapleton



Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Heyday, Arthur
Sexton, James
Mr. Kiley and Dr. Murray.


Hayward, Evan
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)



NOES.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Ganzoni, Sir John
Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Gee, Captain Robert
Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)


Armstrong, Henry Bruce
Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham
Pennefather, De Fonblanque


Atkey, A. R.
Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Baird, Sir John Lawrence
Glyn, Major Ralph
Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Goff, Sir R. Park
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Gould, James C.
Poison, Sir Thomas A.


Barlow, Sir Montague
Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton


Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)
Grenfell, Edward Charles
Pratt, John William


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Grattan, Colonel John
Prescott, Major Sir W. H.


Barnston, Major Harry
Gritten, W. G. Howard
Rankin, Captain James Stuart


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel


Bellaire, Commander Carlyon W.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Remer, J. R.


Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell
Hail, Rr.-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l, W. D'hy)
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Betterton, Henry B.
Hamilton, Sir George C.
Richardson, Lt.-Col, Sir P. (Chertsey)


Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Blake, Sir Francis Douglas
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)


Borwick, Major G. O
Henderson, Lt.-Col. V. L. (Tradeston)
Rodger, A. K.


Boscawen Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Hills, Major John Walter
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Brassey, H. L. C.
Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur


Breese, Major Charles E.
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Hood, Sir Joseph
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)


Briggs, Harold
Hope, Sir H.(Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn,W.)
Seddon, J. A.


Brittain, Sir Harry
Hope, Lt.-Col Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Shaw, William T. (Forfar)


Broad, Thomas Tucker
Hopkins, John W. W.
Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)


Brown, Brig.-Gen, H. C. (Newbury)
Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)
Simm, M. T.


Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Howard, Major S. G.
Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)


Butcher, Sir John George
Hurd, Percy A.
Starkey, Captain John Ralph


Campion, lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Inskip, Thomas Walker H.
Steel, Major S. Strang


Carr, W. Theodore
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Sturrock, J. Leng


Casey, T. W.
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Jephcott, A. R.
Sugden, W. H.


Chamberlain, Rt. Ha. J. A. (Birm. W.)
Johnson, Sir Stanley
Sutherland, Sir William


Churchman, Sir Arthur
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Taylor, J.


Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George
Terrell, George (Wills, Chippenham)


Clough, Sir Robert
Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Coats, Sir Stuart
Kidd, James
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)


Cobb, Sir Cyril
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Townley, Maximilian G.


Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Lane-Fox, G. R.
Tryon, Major George Clement


Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Tinton, Edmund Russborough


Conway, Sir W. Martin
Lloyd, George Butler
Vickers, Douglas


Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and kiln.)
Locker-Lampson, Corn. 0. (H'tingd'n)
Waiters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor


Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Lorden, John William
Ward, col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)


Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Loseby, Captain C. E.
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon Hull)


Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)


Davies. Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachle)
Waring, Major Walter


Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)
McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)
Warren, Sir Alfred H.


Doyle, N. Grattan
Macleod, J. Mackintosh
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
White, Col. G. D. (Southport)


Edgar, Clifford B.
Manville, Edward
Williams, C. (Tavistock)


Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)
Marriott, John Arthur Ransome
Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud


Elveden, Viscount
Mitchell, Sir William Lane
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Evans, Ernest
Molson, Major John Elsdale
Windsor, Viscount


Eyres-Monsen, Com. Bolton M.
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Winfrey, Sir Richard


Falcon, Captain Michael
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Winterton, Earl


Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.
Wise, Frederick


Fell, Sir Arthur
Murchison, C. K.
Wolmer, Viscount


Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.
Murray, Rt. Hon. C. D. (Edinburgh)
Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.
Murray, John (Leeds, West)
Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


Flannery, Sir James Fortescue
Neal, Arthur
Worsfold, T. Cato


Ford, Patrick Johnston
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hen. Sir L.


Foreman, Sir Henry
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)


Forestier-Walker, L.
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen, J. (Westminster)
Younger, Sir George


Forrest, Walter
Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)



Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.


Frece, Sir Walter de
Parker, James



Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Amendment proposed: After the word "duties" ["The new import duties"], to insert the words
except the duties on clocks, watches, and the component parts of clocks and watches."—[Mr. Foot.]

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 83; Noes, 207.

Division No. 151.]
AYES.
[11.38 p.m.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)


Ammon, Charles George
Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)
Bowerman, Rt. H on. Charles W.


Banton, George
Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
Bramsdon, Sir Thomas


Bromfield, William
Holmes, J. Stanley
Sitch, Charles H.


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)


Cairns, John
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Spencer, George A.


Cape, Thomas
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Spoor, B. G.


Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)
Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Kiley, James Daniel
Sutton, John Edward


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Lawson, John James
Swan, J. E.


Cowart, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Lunn, William
Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)


Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Davies, David (Montgomery)
Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E..)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Mallalieu, Frederick William
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Mosley, Oswald
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Galbraith, Samuel
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Waterson, A. E


Gillis, William
Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness and Ross)
Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Naylor, Thomas Ellis
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Grundy, T. W.
Newbould, Alfred Ernest
Wignall, James


Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)


Hall, F. (York W.R., Normanton)
Raffan, Peter Wilson
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Hayday, Arthur
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)


Hayward, Evan
Robertson, John
Wintringham, Margaret


Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Rose, Frank H.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Hinds, John
Royce, William Stapleton



Hirst, G. H.
Sexton, James
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:—


Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)
Mr. Foot and Mr. C White.


Hogge, James Myles
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)



NOES.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.
Lane-Fox, G. R.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Falcon, Captain Michael
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)


Armstrong, Henry Bruce
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfrey
Lindsay, William Arthur


Atkey, A. R.
Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.
Lloyd, George Butler


Baird, Sir John Lawrence
FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.
Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Flannery, Sir James Fortescue
Lorden, John William


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Ford, Patrick Johnston
Loseby, Captain C. E.


Barlow, Sir Montague
Foreman, Sir Henry
Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)


Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)
Forestier-Walker, L.
McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)


Barnett. Major Richard W.
Forrest, Walter
Macleod, J. Mackintosh


Barnston, Major Harry
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Malone. Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Manville, Edward


Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.
Frees. Sir Walter de
Marriott. John Arthur Ransome


Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Mitchell. Sir William Lane


Betterton, Henry B.
Ganzoni, Sir John
Molson, Major John Elsdale


Birchall, J. Dearman
Gee, Captain Robert
Morden, Col. W. Grant


Bird. Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Gibbs. Colonel George Abraham
Morning. Captain Algernon H.


Blake, Sir Francis Douglas
Gilbert, James Daniel
Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.


Borwick, Major G. O.
Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John
Murchison, C. K.


Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-
Glyn, Major Ralph
Murray, Rt. Hon. C. D. (Edinburgh)


Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Goff, Sir R. Park
Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox)


Brassey, H. L. C.
Gould, James C.
Murray, John (Leeds, West)


Breese, Major Charles E.
Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)
Neal, Arthur


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Grenfell, Edward Charles
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson


Briggs, Harold
Gretton, Colonel John
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)


Brittain, Sir Harry
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)


Broad, Thomas Tucker
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)
Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'1,W.D'hy)
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.


Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.
Hamilton, Sir George C.
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col, Sir John


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Hannon. Patrick Joseph Henry
Parker, James


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry


Butcher, Sir John George
Henderson, Lt.-Col. V. L. (Tradeston)
Pease. Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Hennessy, Major J. R. G
Peel, Col Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)


Carr, W. Theodore
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Casey, T. W.
Hills, Major John Waller
Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Poison, Sir Thomas A.


Churchman, Sir Arthur
Hood, Sir Joseph
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton


Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.)
Pratt, John William


Clough, Sir Robert
Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Prescott, Major Sir W. H


Coats, Sir Stuart
Hopkins, John W. W.
Rankin, Captain James Stuart


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)
Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel


Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Remer, J. R.


Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Howard, Major S. G.
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Conway, Sir W. Martin
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Cowan. Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)
Hurd, Percy A.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Inskip, Thomas Walker H.
Rodger, A. K.


Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)
Jephcott, A. R.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth. Putney)


Doyle, N. Grattan
Johnson, Sir Stanley
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)


Edgar. Clifford B.
Kellaway, Rt. Hon Fredk. George
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)


Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)
Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)
Seddon, J. A.


Elveden, Viscount
Kidd, James
Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)


Evans, Ernest
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Shaw, William T. (Forfar)




Simm, M. T.
Tartan, Edmund Russborough
Winfrey, Sir Richard


Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)
Vickers, Douglas
Winterton, Earl


Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander
Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor
Wise, Frederick


Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)
Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Wolmer, Viscount


Starkey, Captain John Ralph
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)
Wood, Hon. Edward F L. (Ripon)


Steel, Major S. Strang
Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)
Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


Sturrock, J. Leng
Waring, Major Walter
Worsfold, T. Cato


Sugden, W. H.
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Sutherland, Sir William
White, Col. G. D. (Southport)
Young. Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)


Taylor, J.
Williams, C. (Tavistock)
Younger, Sir George


Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)
Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud



Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)
Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.


Townley, Maximilian G.
Windsor, Viscount
McCurdy.


Tryon, Major George Clement

Amendment proposed: After the word "duties" ["The new import duties"], to insert the words "except the duties on cinematograph films."—[Mr. Kiley.]

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 87; Noes, 200.

Division No. 152.]
AYES.
[11.46 p.m.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Hayday, Arthur
Sexton, James


Ammon, Charles George
Hayward, Evan
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Banton, George
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hinds, John
Sitch, Charles H.


Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)
Hirst, G. H.
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)


Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
Hodge, Rt. Hon. John
Spencer, George A.


Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)
Hogue, James Myles
Spoor, B. G.


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Holmes, J. Stanley
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Bramsdon, Sir Thomas
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Sutton, John Edward


Brittain, Sir Harry
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Swan, J. E.


Bromfield, William
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Cairns, John
Lawson, John James
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Cape, Thomas
Lunn, William
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)
Lyle-Samuel, Alexander
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow)


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Wallace. J.


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)
Walsh. Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Monaca, Frederick William
Waterson, A. E.


Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)
Mosley, Oswald
Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.


Davies, David (Montgomery)
Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness and Ross)
White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity)
Naylor, Thomas Ellis
Wignall, James


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Poison, Sir Thomas A.
Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)


Foot, Isaac
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Galbraith, Samuel
Raffan, Peter Wilson
Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)


Gillis, William
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Wintringham, Margaret


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Robertson, John
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Grundy, T. W.
Rose, Frank H.



Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)
Royce, William Stapleton
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Seddon, J. A.
Mr. Kiley and Mr. Newbould.


NOES.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Broad, Thomas Tucker
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)
Edgar, Clifford B.


Armstrong, Henry Bruce
Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.
Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)


Atkey, A. R.
Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Elveden, Viscount


Baird, Sir John Lawrence
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Evans, Ernest


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Eyres-Monsell, Corn. Bolton M.


Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Carr, W. Theodore
Falcon, Captain Michael


Barlow, Sir Montague
Casey, T. W.
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfrey


Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas.. Gorbals)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Chamberlain, Rt. Ho. J. A. (Birm., W.)
FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.


Barnston, Major Harry
Churchman, Sir Arthur
Flannery, Sir James Fortescue


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
Ford, Patrick Johnston


Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.
Clough, Sir Robert
Foreman, Sir Henry


Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell
Coats, Sir Stuart
Forestier-Walker, L.


Betterton, Henry B.
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Forrest, Walter


Birchall, J. Dearman
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot


Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Fraser, Major Sir Keith


Blake. Sir Francis Douglas
Conway, Sir W. Martin
Frece, Sir Walter de


Borwick, Major G. O.
Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.


Boscawen, Rt. Hon, Sir A. Griffith-
Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)
Ganzoni, Sir John


Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Gee, Captain Robert


Brassey, H. L. C.
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
i Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham


Breese, Major Charles E.
Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Gilbert, James Daniel


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)
Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John


Briggs, Harold
Doyle, N. Grattan
Glyn, Major Ralph


Goff, Sir R. Park
McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)
Shaw, William T. (Forfar)


Gould, James C.
Macleod, J. Mackintosh
Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)


Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)
Simm, M. T.


Grenfell, Edward Charles
Manville, Edward
Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)


Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Marriott, John Arthur Ransoms
Surd, Colonel Sir Alexander


Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Mitchell, Sir William Lane
Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)


Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Llv'p'l,W.D'by)
Molson, Major John Elsdale
Starkey, Captain John Ralph


Hamilton, Sir George C.
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Steel, Major S. Strang


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
Sturrock, J. Lang


Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.
Sugden, W. H.


Henderson, Lt.-Col. V. L. (Tradeston)
Murchison, C. K.
Sutherland, Sir William


Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Murray, Rt. Hon. C. D. (Edinburgh)
Taylor, J.


Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Murray, John (Leeds, West)
Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)


Hills, Major John Waller
Neal, Arthur
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.
Newton, Sir Percy Wilson
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)


Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Townley, Maximilian G.


Hood, Sir Joseph
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Tryon, Major George Clement


Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'[...]km'nn'n, W.)
Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.
Vickers, Douglas


Hopkins, John W. W.
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
Waiters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor


Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Parker, James
Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)


Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry
Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)


Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike
Waring, Major Walter


Howard, Major S. G.
Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
White, Col. G. D. (Southport)


Hurd, Percy A.
Philipps, Sir Gwen C. (Chester, City)
Williams, C. (Tavistock)


Inskip, Thomas Walker H.
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray
Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud


Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.


James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Pratt, John William
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Jephcott, A. R.
Prescott, Major Sir W. H.
Windsor, Viscount


Johnson, Sir Stanley
Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Winfrey, Sir Richard


Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Winterton, Earl


Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George
Remer, J. R.
Wise, Frederick


Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Wolmer, Viscount


Kidd, James
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


King, Captain Henry Douglas
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)
Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


Lane-Fox, G. R.
Rodger, A. K.
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Lindsay, William Arthur
Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)


Lloyd, George Butler
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Younger, Sir George


Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)



Lorden, John William
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Loseby, Captain C. E.
I Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. McCurdy.


Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachle)
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Dr. MURRAY: I beg to move to leave out the words "and the additional Customs duties on dried fruits."
12.M
These are the additional duties of 50 per cent. levied on dried fruits in the second Budget of 1915, and are a part of what are usually called the McKenna duties. The reason for their imposition was the same as in the case of motor cars, clocks and watches, and practically the same pledges were given as to their being of a temporary character. They were applied in order to discourage imports into this country, it being evidently thought by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—even Liberal Chancellors of the Exchequer can go wrong sometimes—that dried fruits were a luxury. They are really a necessary addition to the food of the people, particularly at certain seasons of the year, when it is difficult to get fresh fruit. One great defect of the dietary of the people of this country is the small proportion of fruit that it includes, and, although dried fruit is not so good as fresh, it comes a good second, and the Committee will be acting in the interests of the general population of the country if, by reducing the duties on dried
fruits, they encourage the consumption of fruit by the people. Very curious anomalies exist in the imposition of these duties. They are imposed on raisins, but not on currants, because we have a convention with Greece. They apply to apricots but not to plums, and not to fruit bottled in water; and they do not apply to peaches. The real reason for these anomalies is that taxes of this sort are foreign to the people of this country, and our customs authorities do not know how to impose them with any degree of consistency. Protectionist countries would do it much better, because it is their nature to. The British fiscal policy has always been a Free Trade policy, and therefore when you do impose a tax, you do it in a blundering fashion, giving a preference to one country as against another. For instance there is no tax on dates. I am very glad of that, because I 'am fond of dates; but why should countries which do not produce dates be placed at a disadvantage? Sometimes, in this way, we penalise our friends and help our enemies. This selective character of the duties is
wrong, in my view, because the tendency is for people to buy the fruit upon which there is no tax, without regard to its comparative merits as an article of diet. Therefore it is high time that these additional taxes, imposed in 1915, were repealed. This is an opportunity for a Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer to make up for the faults of a Liberal Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am quite sure the Liberal Members of the Government will agree with him in this, and really, seeing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his Conservative colleagues have compelled the Liberal Members of the Government to swallow—[HON. MEMBERS: "Dates?"]—fabric gloves, I think it would be a gracious concession to make to the President of the Board of Education, the Postmaster-General, and some other Liberal Members of the Government who have had the courage to come on to the Front Bench during these discussions. I know the amount is small, but the very fact that a tax is put on discourages the importation of these fruits into this country.

Sir L. SCOTT: There are three reasons why this discussion should be brief. These duties are essentially Liberal in origin. The duties were retained by Mr. Gladstone in 1860, and the additional duties were imposed by Mr. McKenna in 1915. The second reason is that a loss of £180,000 would be involved in a full year if these additional duties were taken off. The Exchequer cannot afford that loss. The third reason is that such an excellent demonstration has been already made in favour of Free Trade by hon. Members opposite that, having regard to the clock, after midnight, a further demonstration in force on general political principles is very little reflected in the constituencies. The real point is the Free Trade point, which has been made appreciably on the other duties, which have been discussed, and I therefore ask hon. Members to be content with the very effective demonstration already made.

Mr. HOGGE: The Solicitor-General has said that we have made a very effective protest. If that be true, he must accept this Amendment.

Sir L. SCOTT: I said "demonstration."

Mr. HOGGE: If we have made an effective demonstration, we have effec-
tively demonstrated to the Solicitor-General, who is an intelligent member of the Government, that our point is sound. I should like to know how far the Chancellor of the Exchequer means to go with the Amendments to-night. I do not think that he can accuse us of unduly prolonging any discussions or demonstrations that we have attempted to make. By arrangement with the Chair, we have divided on a number of questions on which we wanted to register our protest, in order to save discussion. Of all the Divisions that have been taken, there are half of the subjects on which we have not said a single word in Debate. If we can keep discussion within reasonable time there is no reason why we should sit to an undue hour. This is a big Bill and the most important Bill of the Session, and we are entitled to all reasonable opportunity to put our point of view in the House whether it is going to be reported in the country or not. Of course the Solicitor-General's reply will not be reported either, which is some consolation to us in our disconsolate state of mind. It has been stated that these duties were increased by Mr. McKenna in 1916. But 1916 was a War year, and this is six years later, four years after the Armistice, and why is it that these taxes imposed at that special time cannot now be removed? We have now, I believe, reached a period of peace, but we have not got rid of these taxes. The Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out that if we do not accept the tax as put into the Finance Bill we shall lose £180,000. He could save £180,000 if every Member of the Government would do his work in the same spirit and at the same salary as the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow (Mr. M. Scott) who is the Scottish Whip. Here we have an example of one who has accepted office in the Government with public spirit and—

The CHAIRMAN: The connection between the hon. Member and the duty on dried fruits is not obvious.

Mr. HOGGE: I do not know whether you know the hon. Member as well as I do. The point is that the £180,000 could be saved easily if the Government exercised and were actuated by a different policy; £180,000 is a bagatelle compared with the millions which the Government are spending. The real point of the Solicitor-General was that
this was a demonstration in favour of Free Trade. Does that mean that the Government are not in favour of Free Trade? Some Members of the Government speak with one voice and some speak with another. Let us know whether the Government are on all matters a Free Trade Government or a Protectionist Government. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will intervene, for the convenience of the Committee, and tell us how far he intends to go to-night.

Sir R. HORNE: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for giving me the opportunity of stating to the Committee what I intend to propose as to the course of business. As my hon. Friend has said, we have a very considerable Bill before us with very important Clauses, and with the long series of Amendments with which we have to deal the time of the House is limited. I hope the Committee will not think I am wanting too much if I ask that we should get the first part of the Bill to-night, that is to say, nine Clauses. I am afraid it is quite impossible to try to deal with this Bill in Committee in the time allotted to us unless we do at least that amount of work to-night, and whatever strain it may put on the patience of hon. Members. I ask them to be good enough to give me their support in obtaining at least that amount of the Bill to-night. I make no complaint of the course of the discussion up to now, but I should gather that some of the points on which hon. Gentlemen opposite feel most keenly have already been discussed, and that we might hope on the succeeding Clauses to get perhaps more rapid progress.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am glad that the right hon. Baronet does not suggest there has been anything in the nature of the holding up of finance for everyone who has taken part in the discussion to-day knows there has been nothing of the sort. There has been a great deal said and we have exercised great self-restraint in saying it. But what really is the object of going on to-night with these very important discussions of these most important Clauses? The Government have no great legislative programme before them. They will be hard put to it to have an excuse for not bringing in measures they are not agreed
upon among themselves. They would be rather glad if we held up this Bill. We all know that, and except that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said it to the Chief Whips this morning, there is really no reason why we should take it to-night.

The CHAIRMAN: It is in order to ask a question as to the intentions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and for him to reply, but it is not in order on this particular Amendment to pursue an argument as to the general course of business.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Then I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
If that Motion be carried against us then, of course, we will go on with the discussion. At any rate, let us take the view of the Committee.

Mr. KILEY: Might I call the attention of the Chancellor to a very important matter appertaining to Clause 6? There is sufficient material to keep us for a couple of hours at least, while to-morrow morning there are two important Committees, A and B. Therefore, to sit to-night and to have to attend Committees early to-morrow is an almost impossible task to impose on Members.

Mr. HOGGE: I want to be quite frank, and I do not wish to ask anything unreasonable. I think there is a great deal in the suggestion that, as far as we know, time could be found for further discussion of the Bill. Of course, if the Government press us in regard to time, we can make ourselves very inconvenient to the Government unless they closure us. I believe the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not want anything of that kind. I think we are prepared to give him the whole of Clause 4, and there is nothing in Clause 5 to which we object. Clause 6 does raise the question of the new duty on beet sugar, which is an important point. It is an entirely new point, and I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer would feel that we should be doing ourselves an injustice if we did not make a considerable debate on that Clause 6. On Clause 7, as far as I know, there will be no great discussion, though I understand there is a point to be raised upon it. On Clause 8 we have the question of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, the
articles to come under it and the nature of the ingredients of those articles in relation to the whole. That is a big subject. On Clause 9, I understand the Amendments on the Paper are more or less out of order or, at any rate, would be much better raised on the proposed new Clause, and Clause 9 might be disposed of without much discussion. I speak under the correction of my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) when I say that if the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer agrees to an Adjournment after getting Clause 4 there will only remain for discussion on these Clauses the question of beet sugar and the Safeguarding of Industries Act. Amendments in regard to both of these are in the name of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, and I think, apart from these, there will be little discussion. If the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to give way, that spirit will meet With a response from this side of the House. We are not unreasonable, and only desire to discuss questions which are really new and essential. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will believe me when I say the progress of the Bill will be assisted by agreeing to the suggestion made and he can trust to the good sense of the Committee to see that the pact is carried out in the spirit in which it is proposed.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: I do not think there will be any obstruction on the part of the Labour party. We could come to an arrangement, under which, if we got an extra day for the Committee stage, we could divide the business up between the remaining days, so as to avoid discussions of this kind occurring every evening. Amendments could be dealt with very quickly if an arrangement were come to between the Government and the Opposition as to how far it was desired to proceed each day. Hitherto we have merely been told, "You can only have three days." We have not been told how far the Government desire to go each day or what is expected from the Committee each day. This has led to unnecessary delay. We might have hurried over the tea duty and had a little more discussion on other matters raising new issues. If

we went up to the end of Clause 5 tonight and arranged for an extra day, or even half a day, we could divide the remaining Amendment over the three days or two and a half days, as the case might be, and we could arrange to efficiently debate everything worth debating, and avoid these very tiresome night sittings in which nothing really effective is done.

Sir R. HORNE: I am sure hon. Members will accept my assurance that I desire to suit the convenience of the Committee to the utmost: possible limit within my power. I agree entirely that there might be more discussion with regard to what strikes many hon. Members with the appearance of novelty, although it is not wholly novel—it has been done before—the remission of Excise duties. I appreciate the fact that we want to discuss that at a little more length than some of the Amendments which are discussed year after year with somewhat sad reiteration. I would like to meet the suggestion which has been made. If I can be assured that we shall, without sitting unduly late, he able to come to an arrangement by which the Committee stage shall take not more than three more days, although we had previously thought it would be possible to complete the whole Committee stag in three days, I will consent to follow the course which has been suggested, but I think we should require to get to the end of Clause 5 to-night.

Mr. HOGGE: I do not object to that.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: As far as I am concerned, you can have Clause 6 as well.

Sir R. HORNE: I think I must have spoken too soon, but if the Committee will give me up to the end of Clause 5 to-night, and arrange that we do not prolong the discussion over more than three further days, I will agree to that.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 164; Noes, 64.

Division No. 153.]
AYES.
[12.30 a. m.


Agg Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Atkey, A. R.
Barnett, Major Richard W.


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Baird, Sir John Lawrence
Barnston, Major Harry


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Marlin
Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Boll, Lieut.-Cal. W. C. H. (Devizes)


Armstrong, Henry Bruce
Barlow, Sir Montague
Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.


Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell
Gee, Captain Robert
Peel, Col. Ho. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)


Betterton, Henry B.
Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Bigland, Alfred
Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Birchall, J. Dearman
Glyn, Major Ralph
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton


Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Goff, Sir R. Park
Rankin, Captain James Stuart


Borwick, Major G. O.
Gould, James C.
Remer, J. R.


Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-
Grenfell, Edward Charles
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Richardson, Lt.-Cot Sir P. (Chertsey)


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Brassey, H. L. C.
Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'1,W.D'by)
Rodger, A. K.


Breese, Major Charles E.
Hamilton, Sir George C.
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Briggs, Harold
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Brittain, Sir Harry
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)
Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.
Scott, A. M, (Glasgow, Bridgeton)


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Holbrook. Sir Arthur Richard
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Hood, Sir Joseph
Seddon, J. A


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel w. R.
Hope, Sir H.(Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn''n, W.)
Shaw, William T. (Forfar)


Carr, W. Theodore
Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Shortt, Rt. Hon E. (N'castle-on-T.)


Casey, T. W.
Hopkins, John W. W.
Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)
Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)


Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Starkey, Captain John Ralph


Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
Hurd, Percy A.
Steel, Major S. Strang


Clough, Sir Robert
Inskip, Thomas Walker H.
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.


Coats, Sir Stuart
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Sturrock, J. Lena


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George
Sugden, W. H.


Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)
Sutherland, Sir William


Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Kidd, James
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Conway, Sir W. Martin
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Lane-Fox, G. R.
Townley, Maximilian G.


Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Tryon, Major George Clement


Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Lindsay, William Arthur
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Davies, David (Montgomery)
Locker Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)
Vickers, Douglas


Doyle, N. Grattan
Lorden, John William
Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor


Du Pre, Colonel William Baring
Manville, Edward
Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)


Edgar, Clifford B.
Moison, Major John Eisdale
Waring, Major Walter


Edge, Captain Sir William
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
White, Col. G. D. (Southport)


Elvedon, Viscount
Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.
Williams, C. (Tavistock)


Evans, Ernest
Murchison, C. K.
Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.


Eyres-Mansell, Com. Bolton M.
Murray, Rt. Hon. C. D. (Edinburgh)
Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)


Falcon, Captain Michael
Murray, John (Leeds, West)
Windsor, Viscount


Fails, Major Sir Bertram Godfrey
Neal, Arthur
Wintringham, Margaret


Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Wise, Frederick


FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


Forestier-Walker, L.
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


Forrest, Walter
Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.
Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)


Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John



Frece, Sir Walter de
Parker, James
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry
Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.


Ganzoni, Sir John
Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike
McCurdy.


NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)


Ammon, Charles George
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Rose, Frank H.


Banton, George
Hayday, Arthur
Royce, William Stapleton


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Sexton, James


Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E)
Hinds, John
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
Hirst, G. H.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)
Hogge, James Myles
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Holmes, J. Stanley
Spencer, George A.


Broad, Thomas Tucker
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Sutton, John Edward


Bromfield, William
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Swan, J. E.


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Thomson. T. (Middlesbrough, west)


Cairns, John
Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Cape, Thomas
Kiley, James Daniel
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)
Lawson, John James
Waterson, A. E.


Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Lunn, William
Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.


Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Malialleu, Frederick William
Wintringham, Margaret


Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Mosley, Oswald
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Entwistle, Major C. F.
Newbould, Alfred Ernest



Foot, Isaac
Poison, Sir Thomas A.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Gillis, William
Rae, Sir Henry N.
Dr. Murray and Colonel Penry


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Raffan, Peter Wilson
Williams.


Grundy, T. W.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. N. MACLEAN: I am again I opposing this Clause, for the reasons that
compelled me to desire to move that the other Clauses do not stand part of the Bill. I have already expressed my point and I am not going to keep the Committee any longer. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear !"] I might have kept it till nine o'clock or until the first tube was going for my own comfort, but I do not see why I should. I could quite easily keep the House going on this Clause, but as I have said, I am going to yield to the Chancellor of the Exchequer because of

the very amiable manner in which he made the concession. I am going to speak no further on it except to ask the Committee to divide upon it really as a protest against the imposition of taxes on food.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 147; Noes, 58.

Division No. 154.]
AYES.
[12.40 a.m.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte
Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M S
Frace, Sir Walter de
Peel, Col. He. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Armstrong, Henry Bruce
Ganzoni, Sir John
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Atkey, A. R.
Gee, Captain Robert
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton


Baird, Sir John Lawrence
Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham
Rankin, Captain James Stuart


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John
Romer, J. R.


Barlow, Sir Montague
Glyn, Major Ralph
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Barnett, Major Richard W.
Goff, Sir R. Park
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Barnston, Major Harry
Gould, James C.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Rodger, A. K.


Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Betterten, Henry B.
Hamilton, Sir George C.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Bigland, Alfred
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Birchall, J. Dearman
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur


Borwick, Major G. O.
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)


Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-
Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Seddon, J. A.


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn'n, W.)
Shaw, William T. (Forfar)


Brassey, H. L. C.
Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)


Breese, Major Charles E.
Hopkins, John W. W.
Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)


Briggs, Harold
Hurd, Percy A.
Starkey, Captain John Ralph


Brittain, Sir Harry
Inskip, Thomas Walker H.
Steel, Major S. Strang


Brown, Brig.-Gen, H. C. (Newbury)
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Sturrock, J. Leng


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George
Sugden, W. H.


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Kidd, James
Sutherland, Sir William


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


Carr, W. Theodore
Lane-Fox, G. R.
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)


Casey, T. W.
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Townley, Maximilian G.


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Lindsay, William Arthur
Tryon, Major George Clement


Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)
Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Wtingd'n)
Turton, Edmund Russborough


Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
Lorden, John William
Vickers, Douglas


Coats, Sir Stuart
Manville, Edward
Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)


Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Molson, Major John Elsdale
Waring, Major Walter


Conway, Sir W. Martin
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Weston, Colonel John Wakefield


Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead)
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.
White, Col. G. D. (Southport)


Davies, David (Montgomery)
Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.
Williams, C. (Tavistock)


Doyle, N. Grattan
Murchison, C. K.
Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.


Edgar, Clifford B.
Murray, Rt. Hon. C. D. (Edinburgh)
Windsor, Viscount


Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)
Murray, John (Leeds, West)
Winterton, Earl


Elveden, Viscount
Neal, Arthur
Wise, Frederick


Evans, Ernest
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
Wood. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


Eyres-Monsell, Corn. Bolton M.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


Falcon, Captain Michael
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Falie, Major Sir Bertram Godfray
Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)
Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)


Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.



FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Forestier-Walker, L.
Parker, James
Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.


Forrest, Walter
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry
McCurdy.


Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot




NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)
Hayday, Arthur


Ammon, Charles George
Davies, A. (Lancaster, Ciltheroe)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)


Banton, George
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Hinds, John


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Hirst, G. H.


Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)
Entwistle, Major C. F.
Hogge, James Myles


Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
Foot, Isaac
Holmes, J. Stanley


Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)
Gillis, William
John, William (Rhondda, West)


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Grundy, T. W.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)


Cairns, John
Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)
Kiley, James Daniel


Cape, Thomas
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Lawson, John James


Lunn, William
Sexton, James
Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.


Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D.(Midlothlan)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Mallalieu, Frederick William
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)
Williams. Col. P. (Middlesbrough. E.)


Mosley, Oswald
Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.



Newbould, Alfred Ernest
Sutton, John Edward
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Rae, Sir Henry N.
Swan, J. E.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Rattan, Peter Wilson
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)



Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Rose, Frank H.
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)
Mr. Neil Maclean and Dr. Murray.


Royce, William Stapleton
Waterson, A. E.

CLAUSE 5.—(Continuation of increased medicine duties.)

The additional duties of excise imposed by Section eleven of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, upon medicines liable to duty shall continue to be charged, levied and paid until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-three.

The CHAIRMAN: The Amendment on the paper in the name of the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean), at the end of the Clause to leave out the word "twenty-three" and to insert instead thereof the word "twenty-two," involves the negativing of the whole Clause, and it is, therefore, not in Order.

Mr. MACLEAN: On a point of Order, 1s it not in order to move that an additional tax imposed during the War should be taken off, and the old tax standing

at pre-War rates allowed to remain The Amendment is really the reduction of a tax.

The CHAIRMAN: The purpose of Clause 5 is to continue for one year or more the additional duties imposed by Section 11 of the Finance Act, 1915. The hon. Member moves that they should be continued till 1st August, 1922. The result of that Amendment would be simply to negative the Clause, and if the hon. Member succeeds in negativing the Clause on a Division, the result would be exactly the same as carrying the Amendment.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 153; Noes, 52.

Division No. 155.]
AYES.
[12.50 a.m.


Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tyne
Edge, Captain Sir William
Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George


Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)
Kidd, James


Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin
Elveden, Viscount
King, Captain Henry Douglas


Armstrong, Henry Bruce
Evans, Ernest
Lane-Fox, G. R.


Atkey, A. R.
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)


Baird, Sir John Lawrence
Falcon, Captain Michael
Lindsay, William Arthur


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfrey
Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)


Barlow, Sir Montague
Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.
Lorden, John William


Barnett, Major Richard W.
FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.
Mallalieu, Frederick William


Barnston, Major Harry
Ford, Patrick Johnston
Manville, Edward


Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Forestier-Walker, L.
Molson, Major John Elsdale


Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.
Forrest, Walter
Morden, Col. W. Grant


Betterton, Henry B.
Foxcrott, Captain Charles Talbot
Moreing, Captain Algernon H.


Bigland, Alfred
Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Morrison-Belt, Major A. C.


Birchall, J. Dearman
Frece, Sir Walter de
Murchison, C. K.


Borwick, Major G. O.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Murray, Fit. Hon. C. D. (Edinburgh)


Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-
Ganzoni, Sir John
Murray, John (Leeds, West)


Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.
Gee, Captain Robert
Neal, Arthur


Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham
Newson, Sir Percy Wilson


Brassey, H. L. C.
Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)


Breese, Major Charles E.
Glyn, Major Ralph
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Goff, Sir R. Park
Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)


Briggs. Harold
Gould, James C.
Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.


Brittain, Sir Harry
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John


Broad, Thomas Tucker
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Parker, James


Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)
Hamilton. Sir George C.
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry


Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)


Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Carr. W. Theodore
Hinds, John
Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray


Casey, T. W.
Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton


Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Rankin, Captain James Stuart


Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. Birm. W.
Hood, Sir Joseph
Remer, J. R.


Coats, Sir Stuart
Hope, Sir H. (Stirling &Cl'ckm'nn,w.)
Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)


Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)


Conway, Sir W. Martin
Hopkins, John W. W.
Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)


Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)
Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)
Rodger, A. K.


Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Hurd, Percy A.
Roundell, Colonel R. F.


Davies, David (Montgomery)
Inskip, Thomas Walker H.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Doyle, N. Grattan
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Edgar, Clifford B.
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur


Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Windsor, Viscount


Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)
Winterton, Earl


Seddon, J. A.
Townley, Maximilian G.
Wise, Frederick


Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)
Tryon, Major George Clement
Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)


Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander
Turton, Edmund Russborough
Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)


Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)
Vickers, Douglas
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon, Sir L.


Starkey, Captain John Ralph
Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)
Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)


Steel, Major S. Strang
Waring, Major Walter



Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.
White, Col. G. D. (Southport)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Sturrock, J. Leng
Williams, C. (Tavistack) Colonel
Leslie Wilson and Mr.


Sugden, W. H.
Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.
McCurdy.


Sutherland, Sir William




NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. William
Heyday, Arthur
Sexton, James


Ammon, Charles George
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Shaw, Thomas (Preston)


Banton, George
Hirst, G. H.
Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hogge, James Myles
Sutton, John Edward


Barton, Sir William (Oldham)
Holmes, J. Stanley
Swan, J. E.


Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormekirk)
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Kiley, James Daniel
Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)


Cairns, John
Lawson, John James
Waterson, A. E.


Cape, Thomas
Lunn, William
Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col D


Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)
Lyle-Samuel, Alexander
Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.


Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)
Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)
Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Mosley, Oswald
Wilson, James (Dudley)


Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Newbould, Alfred Ernest
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Foot, Isaac
Rae, Sir Henry N.



Gillis, William
Rattan, Peter Wilson
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Grundy, T. W.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Mr. Neil Maclean and Mr. T.


Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)
Rose, Frank H.
Griffiths.


Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Royce, William Stapleton



Resolution agreed to.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[Sir R. Horne.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

Orders of the Day — WAYS AND MEANS.

[16TH JUNE.]

Resolutions reported,

MECHANICALLY-PROPELLED VEHICLES.

1. "That where a licence has been taken out for a mechanically-propelled vehicle at any rate under the Second Schedule to the Finance Act, 1920, and the vehicle is at any

—
Rate of duty chargeable in respect of a licence to be used only for vehicles chargeable with duty under paragraphs 1 and 2 of the Second Schedule to the Finance Act, 1020.
Rate of duty chargeable in other cases.


If the licence is a licence to which the one set of regulations is applicable.
£5
£25


If the licence is a licence to which the other set of regulations is applicable.
£1
£5

STAMP DUTY ON CERTIFICATES OF REGIS-STRATTON OF ALKALI, ETC., WORKS.

3."That in lieu of the stamp duties chargeable on certificates of registration of the works mentioned in sub-section (1) of section nine of the Alkali, etc., Works Regulation Act, 1906, there shall be charged

time while such licence is in force used in an altered condition or in a manner or for a purpose which brings it within, or which if it was used solely in that condition or in that manner or for that purpose, would bring it within a class or description of vehicles to which a higher rate of duty is applicable under the said Schedule, duty at such higher rate shall become chargeable in respect of the licence for the vehicle."

GENERAL LICENCES UNDER ROADS ACT, 1920.

2. "That in lieu of the duty chargeable under Section nine of the Roads Act, 1920, in respect of general licences isued under that Section, there shall, in the event of the Minister of Transport in pursuance of any powers which may be conferred upon him issuing two different sets of regulations applicable to such licences, be chargeable in respect of such licences duty at the following yearly rates:—

duties at rates which shall be fixed by the Treasury after consultation with the Minister of Health and the Secretary for Scotland, and which shall be such that the duties levied under the said Act shall not exceed the amount required to meet the costs incurred in respect of the remuneration (including superaanuation allowances) and
expenses of the inspectors, and otherwise in connection with inspection under the said Act, and different rates of duty may be fixed as respects different classes of works."

POWER TO BORROW MONEYS REQUIRED FOR CERTAIN SINKING FUNDS.

4. "That the Treasury may raise money in the same manner in which they are authorised to raise money under sub-section (1) of section one of the War Loan Act, 1919, for any of the following purposes, that is to say:—

(a) for providing during the financial year ending the thirty-first day of March nineteen hundred and twenty-three for the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of the sums to be issued thereout, under section forty-five of the Finance Act, 1921, for the purposes of the sinking fund established under that section in connection with the three and one-half per cent. Conversion Loan; and
(b) for providing during the said financial year such sums as are required in connection with the four per cent. Victory Bonds, or stock or bonds forming part of the four per cent. Funding Loan, 1960–90, which are transferred in satisfaction of death duties, or are as required under Section two of the War Loan Act. 1919, to be issued to the National Debt Commissioners for the purposes of the sinking funds established in pursuance of that Section in connection with the four per cent. Victory Bonds and four per cent. Funding Loan, 1960–90; and
(c) for providing for the repayment to the Consolidated Fund of all or any part of the sums issued out of that fund for the purposes aforesaid;

and that the provisions of Section one of the War Loan Act, 1919, shall have effect accordingly."

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Baird): I beg to move to leave out the words
at rates which shall be fixed by the Treasury after consultation with the Minister of Health and the Secretary for Scotland, and which shall be such that the duties levied under the said Act shall not exceed the amount required to meet the costs incurred in respect of the remuneration (including superannuation allowances) arid expenses of the inspectors, and otherwise in connection with inspection under the said Act, and different rates of duty may he fixed as respects different classes of works.
and to insert instead thereof the words,
of ten pounds in the case of an alkali work and six pounds in the ease of any other work.
On the Committee stage of this Resolution an objection was raised which, on, reconsideration, appeared to have some, considerable substance, and I hope the. House will agree to this Amendment, which will give effect to the desire expressed by Members that some definite sum representing the duty to be charged should be put into the Bill. Hon. Members who were present on the Committee stage will remember that the object was to cover the cost of collection, and, although this will not quite do that, it will considerably increase the amount to be derived. As a matter of fact, the stamp duties will be doubled.

Colonel P. WILLIAMS: Apparently this is an Amendment upon the lines which were advocated in the Committee on Friday, and as far as we can see it is on the right lines, but I would appeal to the hon. Baronet to put the Amendment down on the Paper and to give us a reasonable time for its consideration. It is not quite fair to spring the Amendment on us at 1 o'clock in the morning, and, therefore, I would appeal to the hon Baronet to give us a couple of days to consider it.

Sir J. BAIRD: With the leave of the House, perhaps I may be allowed to explain that we were under no obligation to put down an Amendment at all. We carried our point on the division, and it was only with a view to meeting the wishes which were clearly expressed in every direction that this Amendment was put down.

Mr. HOGGE: What is the hurry?

Sir J. BAIRD: The hurry is that we must get this through before a Clause can be inserted in the Finance Bill.

Mr. HOGGE: What Clause?

Sir J. BAIRD: The Clause which wilt be based on this Resolution.

Mr. HOGGE: What number?

Sir J. BAIRD: New Clauses are not numbered. The Clause cannot be put down until this Resolution has been passed. I explained what the nature of the Clause would be in moving the Resolution in Committee. This Amendment is put down simply with a view to meeting the wishes of the Committee. As hon. Members will remember, the division took place very nearly at the end of the sitting on Friday, and it was impossible without
consulting the necessary authorities, to put down an Amendment. It has there-lore been handed in in manuscript and I hope the House will let us have it.

1.0 A.M

Mr. HOGGE: I do not think it is unreasonable to ask that this Resolution should be put down for to-morrow. My friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has agreed by arrangement a few moments ago to give an extra day for the discussion of the Committee stage of the Finance Bill, and he will admit at once that these new Clauses will not be reached certainly before some time late on Wednesday or on the fourth day which has now been arranged by the Patronage Secretary. I know the Government can take the Report stage after eleven o'clock. My hon. Friend is always quite good about these matters, and my right hon. Friend for Widnes (Mr. A. Henderson) has agreed to raise no objection to the Report stage being taken if my hon. Friend will put it upon the Paper to-morrow. The Govern-men will have it to-morrow night without any trouble. I think this is fair, and I appeal to my hon. Friend to agree to that.

Sir R. HORNE: I am very anxious to agree, but I think the House might agree to this Resolution to-night. We were -under no obligation to make any alteration. We did so to meet the views of those who sit on the opposite side and we thought it was agreed.

Mr. HOGGE: We will give it to you to-morrow night.

Sir R. HORNE: That is all I desire.

Mr. HOGGE: Then put it on the Paper to-morrow.

Sir R. HORNE: I think my hon. Friend will sue that it is reasonable to give us this Resolution now. We cannot put it down on the Paper in time.

Amendment agreed to.

Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Finance Bill that they have power to make provision therein pursuant to the said Resolutions.—[Sir R. Horne.]

Orders of the Day — TELEGRAPH [MONEY].

Resolution reported,
That it is expedient to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of such sums, not exceeding in the whole fifteen million pounds., as are required for the further development of the telephonic system and to authorise the Treasury to borrow money, by means of terminable annuities or by the issue of Exchequer Bonds, for the issue of such sums or the repayment thereof to the Consolidated Fund; and to provide for the payment of the terminable annuities or of the principal of and interest on any such Exchequer Bonds out of moneys provided by Parliament for Post Office services or, if those moneys are insufficient, out of the Consolidated Fund.

Resolution read a Second time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

Mr. AMMON: In the "Glasgow Evening News" attention is called to the fact that during the War the Admiralty erected a trunk line for its own use between Inverness and Fort William. I want to ask what is proposed to be done with this cable which has been laid. Is it going to be allowed to fall into disuse, or is it going to be applied?

The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Kellaway): I have some knowledge of this matter. It is a complicated question, and if my hon. Friend will allow me, I will make an explanation on the Second Reading of the Bill.

Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by Mr. Kellaway, Mr. Pike Pease, and Mr. Hilton Young.

Orders of the Day — TELEGRAPH (MONEY) BILL,

"to provide for raising further money for the purpose of the Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1921," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time this day, and to be printed. [Bill 151.]

Orders of the Day — GOVERNMENT OF NORTHERN IRE-LAND (LOAN GUARANTEE).

Resolution reported,
That it is expedient to authorise the Treasury to guarantee the payment of the principal of and of the interest on any loans raised by the Government of Northern
Ireland, not exceeding in the aggregate an amount sufficient to raise three million five hundred thousand pounds, and to charge on the Consolidated Fund any moneys required to fulfil such guarantee.

Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by Mr. Churchill, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Sir John Baird.

Orders of the Day — GOVERNMENT OF NORTHERN IRELAND (LOAN GUARANTEE) BILL,

"to authorise the Treasury to guarantee payment of the principal of and the interest on loans to be raised by the Government of Northern Ireland," pre-
sented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second Time this day, and to be printed. [Bill 152.]

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Monday evening, MR. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Thirteen Minutes after One o'Clock.